33 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I try to consume foods mostly higher in Omega 3s like flax seeds but some foods that are high in Omega 3s are also high in Omega 6s which is unfortunate. There seems to be very few foods higher in 0-3 than 0-6 but flax seeds are definitely one of them. Chia seeds apparently also have more 0-3 than 0-6 according to what I have read but I have not tried them as yet.

Other high fat foods I consume regularly are

Avocados
Dark chocolate
coconut oil
coconut milk
olive oil
Macadamia nuts

Am I missing any other kind of healthy fat here? I do not consume butter because I stay away from dairy for what I hope are obvious reasons by now. Although very rarely I might get something with cheese in it just for the taste. It is definitely not a common thing for me.

[Forever21]

You should try salmon, raw salmon.

[ken_akiba]

Adverse effects of Phytoestrogen in flexseed, especially for men, is not a matter to be taken lightly. Same applies to a lesser extent to soybeans etc.
I am a big fan of animal fat but that's off topic.

[Skötkonung]

I'm wondering about your "obvious" reasons for not consuming dairy? Don't like CLA and n-3? Its not like butter or cream has casein or lactose. Anyways..

Consumed regularly:
Fish
Shellfish
Grass-fed / pastured beef
Naturally raised chicken and pork, allowed to forage
The organs from all aformentioned animals
Free-range, flax fortified eggs
Dairy (particularly whole cream, butter and cheeses) from grass-fed / pastured cows and goats
Extra Virgin Coconut Oil
Cod liver oil / fish oil

Less regularly or in small amounts:
Avocados
Nuts
Seeds
Dark chocolate
Extra Virgin Olive Oil

My n-3 is usually equal to or higher than my n-6 fat intake. The trick to getting plenty of n-3 fats is through non-commercially produced animal fats. I would be interested to know if a vegetarian or vegan can even get close to balancing their n-3/n-6 using only whole foods? It may be impossible??

Edited by Skötkonung, 06 May 2010 - 11:06 PM.

[buck1s]

Adverse effects of Phytoestrogen in flexseed, especially for men, is not a matter to be taken lightly. Same applies to a lesser extent to soybeans etc.
I am a big fan of animal fat but that's off topic.

Sorry, Ken. Clinical studies, found on pubmed, don't support your assertion. I'll give you two examples and let you choose (or not) to check out the rest.

________________________________________

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2008 Dec;17(12):3577-87.
Flaxseed supplementation (not dietary fat restriction) reduces prostate cancer proliferation rates in men presurgery.

Demark-Wahnefried W, Polascik TJ, George SL, Switzer BR, Madden JF, Ruffin MT 4th, Snyder DC, Owzar K, Hars V, Albala DM, Walther PJ, Robertson CN, Moul JW, Dunn BK, Brenner D, Minasian L, Stella P, Vollmer RT.

Division of Cancer Prevention and Population Sciences, The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, P.O. Box 301439, Unit 1330, Houston, TX 77230-1439, USA. wdemarkw@mdanderson.org
Abstract

BACKGROUND: Prostate cancer affects one of six men during their lifetime. Dietary factors are postulated to influence the development and progression of prostate cancer. Low-fat diets and flaxseed supplementation may offer potentially protective strategies. METHODS: We undertook a multisite, randomized controlled trial to test the effects of low-fat and/or flaxseed-supplemented diets on the biology of the prostate and other biomarkers. Prostate cancer patients (n = 161) scheduled at least 21 days before prostatectomy were randomly assigned to one of the following arms: (a) control (usual diet), (b) flaxseed-supplemented diet (30 g/d), © low-fat diet (<20% total energy), or (d) flaxseed-supplemented, low-fat diet. Blood was drawn at baseline and before surgery and analyzed for prostate-specific antigen, sex hormone-binding globulin, testosterone, insulin-like growth factor-I and binding protein-3, C-reactive protein, and total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Tumors were assessed for proliferation (Ki-67, the primary endpoint) and apoptosis. RESULTS: Men were on protocol an average of 30 days. Proliferation rates were significantly lower (P < 0.002) among men assigned to the flaxseed arms. Median Ki-67-positive cells/total nuclei ratios (x100) were 1.66 (flaxseed-supplemented diet) and 1.50 (flaxseed-supplemented, low-fat diet) versus 3.23 (control) and 2.56 (low-fat diet). No differences were observed between arms with regard to side effects, apoptosis, and most serologic endpoints; however, men on low-fat diets experienced significant decreases in serum cholesterol (P = 0.048). CONCLUSIONS: Findings suggest that flaxseed is safe and associated with biological alterations that may be protective for prostate cancer. Data also further support low-fat diets to manage serum cholesterol.



J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Apr;24(2):146S-149S. Related Articles, Links

Soy protein isolate and protection against cancer.

Badger TM, Ronis MJ, Simmen RC, Simmen FA.

Arkansas Children's Nutrition Center and Department of Physiology/Biophysics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock, AR 72202, USA. badgerthomasm@uams.edu

OBJECTIVE: Results from epidemiological and animal studies suggest that consuming soy-containing diets reduces the incidence of certain cancers. The purpose of this presentation was to evaluate the potential of soy protein to prevent occurrence of prostate, breast and colon cancer. METHODS: Meta-analyses of published epidemiologic studies associating cancer risk with soy intake were performed. The incidence of chemically-induced mammary or colon tumors was determined for rats fed AIN-93G diets made with either casein or soy protein isolate (SPI). Western and Northern blot and microarray analyses were performed on rat mammary and colon tissues to study mechanisms underlying the effects of soy. RESULTS: Meta-analyses revealed reductions in the mean overall risk estimate for mammary (0.78, p < 0.001), colon (0.70, p < 0.001) and prostate (0.66, p < 0.001) cancer for soy consumers. The incidence of AOM-induced colon tumors and DMBA-induced mammary tumors was reduced (p < 0.05) in rats fed SPI-containing diets. Lower incidence of mammary tumors in SPI-fed rats was associated with: 1) reduced terminal end bud numbers (p < 0.05), 2) lower expression of the phase I enzyme CYP1B1 (p < 0.05) and 3) reduced expression of the Ah Receptor and ARNT (p < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: SPI may protect against cancer via multiple mechanisms, including: 1) increased mammary gland differentiation, 2) decreased activation of procarcinogens to carcinogens and 3) regulation of genes in signal transduction pathways underlying tumor initiation, promotion and/or progression.

[ken_akiba]

There are plenty of studies that support my view and there are plenty of studies that oppose. Pubmed battle is meaningless. Interestingly though, most studies that conclude harmlessness of Phytoestrogen come from US institutions and no one can deny US soy industry's powerful influence.

Anecdotal adverse effects include:

Little boys grow up with low testosterone levels. They never know how big, strong and strapping they might have been. Do you honestly believe aspiring Olympic athletes would eat soy protein?
Little girls reach puberty early. Sometimes really early, and don’t you think there should be a kind of substantial break between potty training and puberty?
Women have PMS, endometriosis and a difficult menopause. The worse the problems, the larger the clue to look into estrogen dominance. Yet doctors continue to prescribe soy and flax to fix the very problems it causes.
Men may develop breasts as their testosterone weakens and starts turning into estrogen. The prostate enlarges. The little blue pill becomes more interesting.

And here goes the dreaded Pubmed battle...

Soy food and isoflavone intake in relation to semen quality parameters among men from an infertility clinic
http://humrep.oxford...t/full/den243v1

In conclusion, exposure of the adult male rat to a high phytoestrogen diet disrupts spermatogenesis, increasing germ cell apoptosis.
http://www.reproduct...t/full/133/1/11

Low Concentrations of the Soy Phytoestrogen Genistein Induce Proteinase Inhibitor 9 and Block Killing of Breast Cancer Cells by Immune Cells
http://endo.endojour...ull/149/11/5366

[Forever21]

Oh so that's how I got these breasts.

[ajnast4r]

i dont consume too much fat in general, but...

daily:
olives

multiple times per week:
olive oil
avocado
ghee
chocolate

multiple times per month:
dairy fat in some form, whipping cream, goat cheese, etc
nuts/seeds, usually almonds, walnuts or sunflower seeds

once in a while:
coconut oil/milk
treats, chips etc

I would be interested to know if a vegetarian or vegan can even get close to balancing their n-3/n-6 using only whole foods? It may be impossible??

for a vegan, nearly impossible without eating exactly the same thing every single day.
for a vegetarian, very possible....between dairy, eggs & various oils, flax/hemp/etc & controlling n6 intake.

although i do not think a higher amount of n3:n6 is advisable without risking under active immune respond. i would say at a bare minimum 1:1, and i would only consider that if I had some sort of inflammatory condition. 2:1 is probably closer to ideal for most.

Adverse effects of Phytoestrogen in flexseed, especially for men, is not a matter to be taken lightly.

myth.

Edited by ajnast4r, 07 May 2010 - 04:51 PM.

[ken_akiba]

Frankly I think American public is brainwashed by the high powered soy industry lobby.

http://humrep.oxford...t/full/den243v1
CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that higher intake of soy foods and soy isoflavones is associated with lower sperm concentration.

Edited by ken_akiba, 07 May 2010 - 04:51 PM.

[buck1s]

Frankly I think American public is brainwashed by the high powered soy industry lobby.

http://humrep.oxford...t/full/den243v1
CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that higher intake of soy foods and soy isoflavones is associated with lower sperm concentration.

I understand some of your skepticism, Ken. But you seem quite defensive, accusing us of being brainwashed by the SIL There's no need to have a pubmed war, because we're all free to think for ourselves. If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that moderation probably won't get me into trouble. I eat what I like and don't hyper-consume for some nebulous benefit. But I don't like posts that tell others that THIS or THAT is bad, without some qualifying context.

Keep that high-powered soy industry lobby on their toes.

P.S. What is a "higher" intake of soy foods?
P.P.S. How concentrated does my sperm need to be?

[Skötkonung]

I would be interested to know if a vegetarian or vegan can even get close to balancing their n-3/n-6 using only whole foods? It may be impossible??

for a vegan, nearly impossible without eating exactly the same thing every single day.
for a vegetarian, very possible....between dairy, eggs & various oils, flax/hemp/etc & controlling n6 intake.

although i do not think a higher amount of n3:n6 is advisable without risking under active immune respond. i would say at a bare minimum 1:1, and i would only consider that if I had some sort of inflammatory condition. 2:1 is probably closer to ideal for most.

I'm thinking it could be almost impossible for a vegetarian as well, especially if they consume any sort of grain or plant based oil (olive oil included). Perhaps with high flax seed oil consumption, however since n6 consumption reduces the efficacy of ALA it would need to be strictly controlled as you mentioned.

For instance, 1 tbsp of extra virgin olive oil has 1.3g n6 to .1g n3.

Even flax fortified eggs deviate somewhat from the ideal 1:1 ratio:
www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/68/3/538.pdf

Edited by Skötkonung, 07 May 2010 - 05:29 PM.

[ken_akiba]

No worries. Japanese government does the same. So I am not accusing you, in fact I am sympathizing with you, unless of course you are the high powered soy industry spokesperson.
For the record, Pubmed war was raged :-) by you and the studies I have cited clearly outlines adverse effects of consumption and over-consumption of phytoesterogen but as I said, there are plenty of American studies that conclude exactly the opposite, so I again go back to my opinion: Pubmed war is meaningless.
I am not telling you or forcing America anything, I am simply presenting my view and the evidences of it as is the point of existence of this forum.

Keep that high-powered soy industry lobby on their toes.
This shouldn't justify its (arguably) unscrupulous lobbying.

P.S. What is a "higher" intake of soy foods?
P.P.S. How concentrated does my sperm need to be?
It's all in the study, please take some time and read it.

I apologize to the OP that I may be diluting your original purpose of the thread.

Edited by ken_akiba, 07 May 2010 - 05:43 PM.

[TheFountain]

I'm wondering about your "obvious" reasons for not consuming dairy? Don't like CLA and n-3? Its not like butter or cream has casein or lactose. Anyways..

Consumed regularly:
Fish
Shellfish
Grass-fed / pastured beef
Naturally raised chicken and pork, allowed to forage
The organs from all aformentioned animals
Free-range, flax fortified eggs
Dairy (particularly whole cream, butter and cheeses) from grass-fed / pastured cows and goats
Extra Virgin Coconut Oil
Cod liver oil / fish oil

Less regularly or in small amounts:
Avocados
Nuts
Seeds
Dark chocolate
Extra Virgin Olive Oil

My n-3 is usually equal to or higher than my n-6 fat intake. The trick to getting plenty of n-3 fats is through non-commercially produced animal fats. I would be interested to know if a vegetarian or vegan can even get close to balancing their n-3/n-6 using only whole foods? It may be impossible??

What I mean by obvious reasons for not consuming dairy are the view I have espoused before of dairy being pro-growth through raising IGF-1 levels and my belief that pro-growth=pro-aging. Feel free to further elucidate why you think this position is dumb if you want, but studies HAVE shown that less dairy/animal fat=less IGF-1.

The association between diet and serum concentrations of IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2, and IGFBP-3 in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.
Crowe FL, Key TJ, Allen NE, Appleby PN, Roddam A, Overvad K, Grønbaek H, Tjønneland A, Halkjaer J, Dossus L, Boeing H, Kröger J, Trichopoulou A, Dilis V, Trichopoulos D, Boutron-Ruault MC, De Lauzon B, Clavel-Chapelon F, Palli D, Berrino F, Panico S, Tumino R, Sacerdote C, Bueno-de-Mesquita HB, Vrieling A, van Gils CH, Peeters PH, Gram IT, Skeie G, Lund E, Rodríguez L, Jakszyn P, Molina-Montes E, Tormo MJ, Barricarte A, Larrañaga N, Khaw KT, Bingham S, Rinaldi S, Slimani N, Norat T, Gallo V, Riboli E, Kaaks R.

Cancer Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford OX3 7LF, UK. francesca.crowe@ceu.ox.ac.uk
Abstract
Circulating concentrations of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and IGF binding proteins (IGFBP) have been associated with the risk of several types of cancer. Dietary correlates of IGF-I and IGFBPs are not yet well established. The objective of this study was to assess the association between dietary intake and serum concentrations of IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2, and IGFBP-3 in a cross-sectional analysis of 4,731 men and women taking part in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition. Diet was assessed using country-specific validated dietary questionnaires. Serum concentrations of IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2 and IGFBP-3 were measured, and the associations between diet and IGF-I and IGFBPs were assessed using multiple linear regression adjusting for sex, age, body mass index, smoking status, and alcohol and energy intake. Each 1 SD increment increase in total and dairy protein and calcium intake was associated with an increase in IGF-I concentration of 2.5%, 2.4%, and 3.3%, respectively (P for trend <0.001 for all) and a decrease in IGFBP-2 of 3.5%, 3.5%, and 5.4% (P for trend <0.001 for all), respectively. There were no significant associations between the intake of protein or calcium from nondairy sources and IGF-I. The results from this large cross-sectional analysis show that either the intake of dairy protein or calcium is an important dietary determinant of IGF-I and IGFBP-2 concentrations; however, we suggest that it is more likely to be protein from dairy products.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....4?dopt=Abstract

[Skötkonung]

I'm wondering about your "obvious" reasons for not consuming dairy? Don't like CLA and n-3? Its not like butter or cream has casein or lactose. Anyways..

Consumed regularly:
Fish
Shellfish
Grass-fed / pastured beef
Naturally raised chicken and pork, allowed to forage
The organs from all aformentioned animals
Free-range, flax fortified eggs
Dairy (particularly whole cream, butter and cheeses) from grass-fed / pastured cows and goats
Extra Virgin Coconut Oil
Cod liver oil / fish oil

Less regularly or in small amounts:
Avocados
Nuts
Seeds
Dark chocolate
Extra Virgin Olive Oil

My n-3 is usually equal to or higher than my n-6 fat intake. The trick to getting plenty of n-3 fats is through non-commercially produced animal fats. I would be interested to know if a vegetarian or vegan can even get close to balancing their n-3/n-6 using only whole foods? It may be impossible??

What I mean by obvious reasons for not consuming dairy are the view I have espoused before of dairy being pro-growth through raising IGF-1 levels and my belief that pro-growth=pro-aging. Feel free to further elucidate why you think this position is dumb if you want, but studies HAVE shown that less dairy/animal fat=less IGF-1.

The association between diet and serum concentrations of IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2, and IGFBP-3 in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.
Crowe FL, Key TJ, Allen NE, Appleby PN, Roddam A, Overvad K, Grønbaek H, Tjønneland A, Halkjaer J, Dossus L, Boeing H, Kröger J, Trichopoulou A, Dilis V, Trichopoulos D, Boutron-Ruault MC, De Lauzon B, Clavel-Chapelon F, Palli D, Berrino F, Panico S, Tumino R, Sacerdote C, Bueno-de-Mesquita HB, Vrieling A, van Gils CH, Peeters PH, Gram IT, Skeie G, Lund E, Rodríguez L, Jakszyn P, Molina-Montes E, Tormo MJ, Barricarte A, Larrañaga N, Khaw KT, Bingham S, Rinaldi S, Slimani N, Norat T, Gallo V, Riboli E, Kaaks R.

Cancer Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford OX3 7LF, UK. francesca.crowe@ceu.ox.ac.uk
Abstract
Circulating concentrations of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and IGF binding proteins (IGFBP) have been associated with the risk of several types of cancer. Dietary correlates of IGF-I and IGFBPs are not yet well established. The objective of this study was to assess the association between dietary intake and serum concentrations of IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2, and IGFBP-3 in a cross-sectional analysis of 4,731 men and women taking part in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition. Diet was assessed using country-specific validated dietary questionnaires. Serum concentrations of IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2 and IGFBP-3 were measured, and the associations between diet and IGF-I and IGFBPs were assessed using multiple linear regression adjusting for sex, age, body mass index, smoking status, and alcohol and energy intake. Each 1 SD increment increase in total and dairy protein and calcium intake was associated with an increase in IGF-I concentration of 2.5%, 2.4%, and 3.3%, respectively (P for trend <0.001 for all) and a decrease in IGFBP-2 of 3.5%, 3.5%, and 5.4% (P for trend <0.001 for all), respectively. There were no significant associations between the intake of protein or calcium from nondairy sources and IGF-I. The results from this large cross-sectional analysis show that either the intake of dairy protein or calcium is an important dietary determinant of IGF-I and IGFBP-2 concentrations; however, we suggest that it is more likely to be protein from dairy products.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....4?dopt=Abstract

What I think is stupid about your comment is that cream, ghee, and butter don't have much (if any) protein in them. But then again, you never were for details were you?

Whipping cream:
http://www.nutrition...g-products/51/2

Butter:
http://www.nutrition...-products/133/2

0g per 1tbsp serving. We are talking about fat, right?And your study does a great job demonstrating that there is no real IGF1 stimulating difference between meat and soy. But didn't we already know that?

Controlled substitution of soy protein for meat protein: effects on calcium retention, bone and cardiovascular health indices in postmenopausal women
http://jcem.endojour.../jc.2004-0393v1

Yep, IGF1 was unchanged.

Edited by Skötkonung, 08 May 2010 - 05:39 AM.

[TheFountain]

What I think is stupid about your comment is that cream, ghee, and butter don't have much (if any) protein in them. But then again, you never were for details were you?

What I think is stupid about this statement is that you previously said you eat cheese. And butter and cream still contain lactose.

0g per 1tbsp serving. We are talking about fat, right?And your study does a great job demonstrating that there is no real IGF1 stimulating difference between meat and soy. But didn't we already know that?

Let's take a look at this then. Oh by the way, that study was not referring to steady IGF-1 levels but to raised IGF-1 levels when consuming dairy protein.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....6?dopt=Abstract

'insulin-like growth factor 1 (P = .002), and leptin (P = .005) were lower in the RF group.'

then there's this one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....2?dopt=Abstract

BACKGROUND: Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low GI. The insulinotropic mechanism of milk has not been elucidated. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to evaluate the effect of common dietary sources of animal or vegetable proteins on concentrations of postprandial blood glucose, insulin, amino acids, and incretin hormones [glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1] in healthy subjects. DESIGN: Twelve healthy volunteers were served test meals consisting of reconstituted milk, cheese, whey, cod, and wheat gluten with equivalent amounts of lactose. An equicarbohydrate load of white-wheat bread was used as a reference meal. RESULTS: A correlation was found between postprandial insulin responses and early increments in plasma amino acids; the strongest correlations were seen for leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. A correlation was also obtained between responses of insulin and GIP concentrations. Reconstituted milk powder and whey had substantially lower postprandial glucose areas under the curve (AUCs) than did the bread reference (-62% and -57%, respectively). Whey meal was accompanied by higher AUCs for insulin (90%) and GIP (54%). CONCLUSIONS: It can be concluded that food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids. Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue.

Edited by TheFountain, 08 May 2010 - 07:33 AM.

[TheFountain]

You should try salmon, raw salmon.

The only problem with that is bones, bones and more bones. I do sometimes eat bumblebee packaged salmon. But am I right in guessing this is mainly protein and not much 0-3?

[Forever21]

You should try salmon, raw salmon.

The only problem with that is bones, bones and more bones. I do sometimes eat bumblebee packaged salmon. But am I right in guessing this is mainly protein and not much 0-3?

I was referring to Sashimi, wild alaskan salmon sashimi. So bones is a non-issue. Yes protein.

For only fats I rely on the big 3 (nuts, olive oil, avocado)

[Mia K.]

I try to consume foods mostly higher in Omega 3s like flax seeds but some foods that are high in Omega 3s are also high in Omega 6s which is unfortunate. There seems to be very few foods higher in 0-3 than 0-6 but flax seeds are definitely one of them. Chia seeds apparently also have more 0-3 than 0-6 according to what I have read but I have not tried them as yet.

Hi TheFountain.  Don Matesz, author of The Garden of Eating, has quite a bit to say about flax in a post titled "Top Ten Problems With Applying The Paleolithic Diet Principles:  Number 7" on his blog, Primal Wisdom.

http://donmatesz.blo...pplying_09.html

The post includes study links and commentary.  It's worth your time to read IMO - you might even want to peruse the other nine of the Top Problems. 

Regards, Mia

[TheFountain]

You should try salmon, raw salmon.

The only problem with that is bones, bones and more bones. I do sometimes eat bumblebee packaged salmon. But am I right in guessing this is mainly protein and not much 0-3?

I was referring to Sashimi, wild alaskan salmon sashimi. So bones is a non-issue. Yes protein.

For only fats I rely on the big 3 (nuts, olive oil, avocado)

I shall certainly try it. If I can find it in my local supermarket.

[TheFountain]

I try to consume foods mostly higher in Omega 3s like flax seeds but some foods that are high in Omega 3s are also high in Omega 6s which is unfortunate. There seems to be very few foods higher in 0-3 than 0-6 but flax seeds are definitely one of them. Chia seeds apparently also have more 0-3 than 0-6 according to what I have read but I have not tried them as yet.

Hi TheFountain.  Don Matesz, author of The Garden of Eating, has quite a bit to say about flax in a post titled "Top Ten Problems With Applying The Paleolithic Diet Principles:  Number 7" on his blog, Primal Wisdom.

http://donmatesz.blo...pplying_09.html

The post includes study links and commentary.  It's worth your time to read IMO - you might even want to peruse the other nine of the Top Problems. 

Regards, Mia

I shall definitely have a look. Thank you for being a more peaceful person with a level headed approach. I think peaceful mindedness is what we need to enter a better world. Sometimes the arrogance of so many users is appalling. And the way it rubs off on me is equally sickening. *clicks*

[Forever21]

You should try salmon, raw salmon.

The only problem with that is bones, bones and more bones. I do sometimes eat bumblebee packaged salmon. But am I right in guessing this is mainly protein and not much 0-3?

I was referring to Sashimi, wild alaskan salmon sashimi. So bones is a non-issue. Yes protein.

For only fats I rely on the big 3 (nuts, olive oil, avocado)

I shall certainly try it. If I can find it in my local supermarket.

You can only get it in high quality Japanese restaurants.

Edited by Forever21, 08 May 2010 - 01:45 PM.

[Mia K.]

I try to consume foods mostly higher in Omega 3s like flax seeds but some foods that are high in Omega 3s are also high in Omega 6s which is unfortunate. There seems to be very few foods higher in 0-3 than 0-6 but flax seeds are definitely one of them. Chia seeds apparently also have more 0-3 than 0-6 according to what I have read but I have not tried them as yet.

Hi TheFountain.  Don Matesz, author of The Garden of Eating, has quite a bit to say about flax in a post titled "Top Ten Problems With Applying The Paleolithic Diet Principles:  Number 7" on his blog, Primal Wisdom.

http://donmatesz.blo...pplying_09.html

The post includes study links and commentary.  It's worth your time to read IMO - you might even want to peruse the other nine of the Top Problems. 

Regards, Mia

I shall definitely have a look. Thank you for being a more peaceful person with a level headed approach. I think peaceful mindedness is what we need to enter a better world. Sometimes the arrogance of so many users is appalling. And the way it rubs off on me is equally sickening. *clicks*

Thanks for your kind words, TheFountain.  Cheers, M

 

[Alex Libman]

Yummy avocados, black olives (not oil), flax seeds, sesame seeds, other seeds, nuts, fish oil supplements (the only animal product I consume as a vegan). There's also a few milligrams of healthy fats in just about every vegetable.

[Skötkonung]

What I think is stupid about this statement is that you previously said you eat cheese. And butter and cream still contain lactose.

No they don't you idiot. Lactose is a carbohydrate. There is no carbohydrate in those compounds.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....6?dopt=Abstract
'insulin-like growth factor 1 (P = .002), and leptin (P = .005) were lower in the RF group.'

Low bone mass... that sounds great for anti-aging.
"A RF vegetarian diet is associated with low bone mass at clinically important skeletal regions"

http://www.ncbi.nlm....2?dopt=Abstract[/url]

BACKGROUND: Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low GI. The insulinotropic mechanism of milk has not been elucidated. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to evaluate the effect of common dietary sources of animal or vegetable proteins on concentrations of postprandial blood glucose, insulin, amino acids, and incretin hormones [glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1] in healthy subjects. DESIGN: Twelve healthy volunteers were served test meals consisting of reconstituted milk, cheese, whey, cod, and wheat gluten with equivalent amounts of lactose. An equicarbohydrate load of white-wheat bread was used as a reference meal. RESULTS: A correlation was found between postprandial insulin responses and early increments in plasma amino acids; the strongest correlations were seen for leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. A correlation was also obtained between responses of insulin and GIP concentrations. Reconstituted milk powder and whey had substantially lower postprandial glucose areas under the curve (AUCs) than did the bread reference (-62% and -57%, respectively). Whey meal was accompanied by higher AUCs for insulin (90%) and GIP (54%). CONCLUSIONS: It can be concluded that food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids. Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue.

Wow you just demonstrated that whey protein may have insulinotropic properties. What does this have to do with cream, ghee, or butter not having any whey in them?

Don't bother replying to my posts if you don't have anything useful to say.

Edited by Skötkonung, 09 May 2010 - 10:52 AM.

[Skötkonung]

I shall definitely have a look. Thank you for being a more peaceful person with a level headed approach. I think peaceful mindedness is what we need to enter a better world. Sometimes the arrogance of so many users is appalling. And the way it rubs off on me is equally sickening. *clicks*

I see you have a sense of humor.

Edited by Skötkonung, 09 May 2010 - 10:52 AM.

[ajnast4r]

No they don't you idiot

lol

I'm thinking it could be almost impossible for a vegetarian as well

the ability to achieve the goal depends on what the goal is... 1:1 ratio without supplements would be hard, maybe impossible. but i dont think a 1:1 ratio is an ideal goal... i think at this level most people are risking suboptimal immune function.

great paper btw. too bad they didnt have a group with just flaxmeal like most commercial omega3 eggs.

Low bone mass... that sounds great for anti-aging.
"A RF vegetarian diet is associated with low bone mass at clinically important skeletal regions"

attributing those results to something inherent in the vegetarian diet, as opposed to simply lacking certain micronutrients, would be irresponsible at best.



http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7391450

J Am Diet Assoc. 1980 Feb;76(2):148-51.
Cortical bone density of adult lacto-ovo-vegetarian and omnivorous women.

Marsh AG, Sanchez TV, Midkelsen O, Keiser J, Mayor G.
Abstract

Lacto-ovo-vegetarian women fifty to eighty-nine years of age lost 18 per cent bone mineral mass while omnivorous women lost 35 per cent. This study established that this difference could not be explained by a greater bone density in the lacto-ovo-vegetarians during the third, fourth, and fifth decades of life. The possibility of higher sulfur content in the meat-containing diet, the effect of excess phosphorus, and the effect of an acid-ash diet are discussed. From the standpoint of a general survey, comsumption of calcium-containing foods was not appreciably different in the two groups. It is, therefore, concluded that lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet may be beneficial in extended protective health care in terms of defense against, or control of, bone mineral loss in the later years of a woman's life.

http://www.springerl...7...ef0b13&pi=0

Abstract
Summary
This cross-sectional study showed that, although vegans had lower dietary calcium and protein intakes than omnivores, veganism did not have adverse effect on bone mineral density and did not alter body composition.
Introduction
Whether a lifelong vegetarian diet has any negative effect on bone health is a contentious issue. We undertook this study to examine the association between lifelong vegetarian diet and bone mineral density and body composition in a group of postmenopausal women.
Methods
One hundred and five Mahayana Buddhist nuns and 105 omnivorous women (average age = 62, range = 50–85) were randomly sampled from monasteries in Ho Chi Minh City and invited to participate in the study. By religious rule, the nuns do not eat meat or seafood (i.e., vegans). Bone mineral density (BMD) at the lumbar spine (LS), femoral neck (FN), and whole body (WB) was measured by DXA (Hologic QDR 4500). Lean mass, fat mass, and percent fat mass were also obtained from the DXA whole body scan. Dietary calcium and protein intakes were estimated from a validated food frequency questionnaire.
Results
There was no significant difference between vegans and omnivores in LSBMD (0.74 ± 0.14 vs. 0.77 ± 0.14 g/cm2; mean ± SD; P = 0.18), FNBMD (0.62 ± 0.11 vs. 0.63 ± 0.11 g/cm2; P = 0.35), WBBMD (0.88 ± 0.11 vs. 0.90 ± 0.12 g/cm2; P = 0.31), lean mass (32 ± 5 vs. 33 ± 4 kg; P = 0.47), and fat mass (19 ± 5 vs. 19 ± 5 kg; P = 0.77) either before or after adjusting for age. The prevalence of osteoporosis (T scores ≤ −2.5) at the femoral neck in vegans and omnivores was 17.1% and 14.3% (P  = 0.57), respectively. The median intake of dietary calcium was lower in vegans compared to omnivores (330 ± 205 vs. 682 ± 417 mg/day, P < 0.001); however, there was no significant correlation between dietary calcium and BMD. Further analysis suggested that whole body BMD, but not lumbar spine or femoral neck BMD, was positively correlated with the ratio of animal protein to vegetable protein.
Conclusion
These results suggest that, although vegans have much lower intakes of dietary calcium and protein than omnivores, veganism does not have adverse effect on bone mineral density and does not alter body composition.

Edited by ajnast4r, 09 May 2010 - 06:07 PM.

[TheFountain]

What I think is stupid about this statement is that you previously said you eat cheese. And butter and cream still contain lactose.

No they don't you idiot. Lactose is a carbohydrate. There is no carbohydrate in those compounds.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....6?dopt=Abstract
'insulin-like growth factor 1 (P = .002), and leptin (P = .005) were lower in the RF group.'

Low bone mass... that sounds great for anti-aging.
"A RF vegetarian diet is associated with low bone mass at clinically important skeletal regions"

http://www.ncbi.nlm....2?dopt=Abstract[/url]

BACKGROUND: Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low GI. The insulinotropic mechanism of milk has not been elucidated. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to evaluate the effect of common dietary sources of animal or vegetable proteins on concentrations of postprandial blood glucose, insulin, amino acids, and incretin hormones [glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1] in healthy subjects. DESIGN: Twelve healthy volunteers were served test meals consisting of reconstituted milk, cheese, whey, cod, and wheat gluten with equivalent amounts of lactose. An equicarbohydrate load of white-wheat bread was used as a reference meal. RESULTS: A correlation was found between postprandial insulin responses and early increments in plasma amino acids; the strongest correlations were seen for leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. A correlation was also obtained between responses of insulin and GIP concentrations. Reconstituted milk powder and whey had substantially lower postprandial glucose areas under the curve (AUCs) than did the bread reference (-62% and -57%, respectively). Whey meal was accompanied by higher AUCs for insulin (90%) and GIP (54%). CONCLUSIONS: It can be concluded that food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids. Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue.

Wow you just demonstrated that whey protein may have insulinotropic properties. What does this have to do with cream, ghee, or butter not having any whey in them?

Don't bother replying to my posts if you don't have anything useful to say.

They contain trace amounts of lactose, you idiot (enough in fact for someone who is lactose intolerant to notice it!). And that still doesn't justify eating cheese. You're an arrogant dick head who thinks he knows everything. Get over yourself.

Edit: I wasn't referring to ghee I was referring to butter and cream regarding the lactose issue. Yes, they DO contain lactose in amounts high enough for the lactose intolerant to notice!

Edited by TheFountain, 09 May 2010 - 07:59 PM.

[Skötkonung]

the ability to achieve the goal depends on what the goal is... 1:1 ratio without supplements would be hard, maybe impossible. but i dont think a 1:1 ratio is an ideal goal... i think at this level most people are risking suboptimal immune function.

I'd like to see a study that implicates a 1:1 balance of n-3/n-6 as compromising immune function. Especially when total PUFA intake constitutes a reasonable portion of total caloric intake.
One positive aspect of having a meat based diet is that one can have a 1:1 ratio between these essential amino acids without having excess total PUFA (I rarely exceed 10-15g total).

Fatty acids, the immune response, and autoimmunity: A question of n−6 essentiality and the balance between n−6 and n−3
"Diets low in fat, essential fatty acid deficient (EFAD), or high in long-chain n−3 PUFA from fish oils increase survival and reduce disease severity in spontaneous autoantibody-mediated disease, whereas high-fat LA-rich diets increase disease severity."

n–3 Polyunsaturated fatty acids, inflammation, and inflammatory diseases
"Long-chain n–3 PUFAs also give rise to a family of antiinflammatory mediators termed resolvins. Thus, n–3 PUFAs are potentially potent antiinflammatory agents. As such, they may be of therapeutic use in a variety of acute and chronic inflammatory settings. Evidence of their clinical efficacy is reasonably strong in some settings (eg, in rheumatoid arthritis) but is weak in others (eg, in inflammatory bowel diseases and asthma). More, better designed, and larger trials are required to assess the therapeutic potential of long-chain n–3 PUFAs in inflammatory diseases. The precursor n–3 PUFA {alpha}-linolenic acid does not appear to exert antiinflammatory effects at achievable intakes"

This is interesting because it shows n-3 from plants (walnuts, flax, etc) may not exert the same degree of anti-inflammatory action as EPA / DHA from fish oil.

The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids.
"A lower ratio of omega-6/omega-3 fatty acids is more desirable in reducing the risk of many of the chronic diseases of high prevalence in Western societies, as well as in the developing countries, that are being exported to the rest of the world."

This study demonstrates that ratio is more important than crossing some arbitrary n-3 threshold.

attributing those results to something inherent in the vegetarian diet, as opposed to simply lacking certain micronutrients, would be irresponsible at best.

I'm not contesting that, but worth noting is I didn't post that study. I'm just bringing to light some of TheFountain's findings. However, the evidence is far from clear whether a vegan or vegetarian diet is superior for preserving bone mass:

Veganism and osteoporosis: A review of the current literature
"Are vegans at a greater risk for fractures than non-vegans? The findings gathered consistently support the hypothesis that vegans do have lower bone mineral density than their non-vegan counterparts. However, the evidence regarding calcium, Vitamin D and fracture incidence is inconclusive. More research is needed to definitively answer these questions and to address the effects of such deficiencies on the medical and socioeconomic aspects of life."

Long-Term Vegetarian Diet and Bone Mineral Density in Postmenopausal Taiwanese Women
" Long-term practitioners of vegan vegetarian were found to be at a higher risk of exceeding lumbar spine fracture threshold (adjusted odds ratio = 2.48, 95% confidence interval = 1.03–5.96) and of being classified as having osteopenia of the femoral neck (3.94, 1.21–12.82). Identification of effective nutrition supplements may be necessary to improve BMD levels and to reduce the risk of osteoporosis among long-term female vegetarians. "

Bone mineral density in Chinese elderly female vegetarians, vegans, lacto-vegetarians and omnivores.
"There is a relationship between diet and BMD. The BMD at the hip was lower in vegetarians than omnivores, but no difference was observed between 'vegans' and 'lactovegetarians'. There is a complex relationship between the intake of various nutrient and BMD in vegetarians."

Spinal Bone Mineral Density in Premenopausal Vegetarian and Nonvegetarian Women Cross-sectional and Prospective Comparisons
"Vegetarian women should be aware of links between low BMD and low body weight/body fat, and should maintain adequate intakes of nutrients believed to affect BMD."

The take home message is that if you choose a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, you should watch your BMD and as you pointed out, micro-nutrient status.

[Kristjan]

I must admire your patience, skotkönung :D

Arguing with vegetarians seems to me like arguing with feminists, they don't respond to logic or reason.

[ajnast4r]

I'd like to see a study that implicates a 1:1 balance of n-3/n-6 as compromising immune function. Especially when total PUFA intake constitutes a reasonable portion of total caloric intake.
One positive aspect of having a meat based diet is that one can have a 1:1 ratio between these essential amino acids without having excess total PUFA (I rarely exceed 10-15g total).

i'll take a look & read those studies when i have more time this week.

The take home message is that if you choose a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, you should watch your BMD and as you pointed out, micro-nutrient status.

word. i personally dont think vegan diets can BE optimal type diets & will most likely always be disadvantageous to the person.

I must admire your patience, skotkönung :
Arguing with vegetarians seems to me like arguing with feminists, they don't respond to logic or reason.

i'm a vegetarian & ill respond to anything logical or reasonable you have to say.

Edited by ajnast4r, 10 May 2010 - 08:06 AM.