33 replies to this topic

[jwberg]

Hi all.

Thanks for opening up this particular forum. It would appear sensible to me that our first port of call is to extend what we already have as we wait for what can be in the future (a greater chance of actually achieving it, right?).

With that end in mind, is anybody aware of a clearly-defined correct or reasonable set of normal foods that should be consumed by those with a view to expanding their current lifespan towards its theoretical maximum?

Could we look please, with the assistance of those skilled in this field, at compiling "the immortal diet"?

Thanks in advance.
Warwick.
SitesOnline.
www.soa.net

[reason]

To my mind, far too much effort is spent on the diet and lifestyle effort in comparison to supporting medical research. The diet and lifestyle thing isn't really rocket science at this point in time, and much of what goes on in those circles is overkill or wasted time - the tools just don't exist to be able to quantify whether you're getting 80% or 100% benefit (or 50% for that matter).

So the sensible position would seem to be calorie restriction to a level you are comfortable with, moderate exercise, and supplementation to a level you are comfortable with. Everyone is different and establishing your own point of comfort in even these simple matters can take years. The world does need more good calorie restriction guides and books, but the ones that do exist work just fine for the basics. As for supplements, Kurzweil's Fantastic Voyage is actually a good guide for people who want a scientifically defensible starting point.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[jwberg]

Hello Reason

Thank you very much for responding. I shall certain study the book. I can't see an ebook version of it though. Are you aware if this comes out electronically? I like to take my books with me wherever I go nowadays if possible.

And with all due respect to your opening statement, I feel, personally, that if I don't make it through to see these wonder technologies extending my life, then a large chunk of my efforts are likely to have been in vain (at least as far as my personal cause is concerned (although it may help others)).

You are probably quite correct that more effort and assistance is required in medical research, however I am not qualified to give such assistance, and this post is not about that. To me personally, the goal involves staying around long enough to reach the finish line (or is that the start line?). Every month I can add to my lifespan increases my chances of making it. I admit, I AM assuming that each on this forum would have this idea as a pre-requesite in his quest for immortality.

As you are aware, there is a plethora of diets, many claiming to be the most healthy. I am looking for the one that will expand most greatly my lifespan, even if should I lose certain functions as a trade-off. Healthy but dead (yes I know) is not an acceptable option; partially incapacitated but cognisant would do at a pinch, while waiting/learning/advancing. That's perhaps a little extreme but I hope you now have a better picture of my original posted question. Obviously healthy and cognisant would be preferable

It is for this reason that I seek a proven formula, and although CR appears proven to some extent on animals, do we have more than an idea that it will extend the span of a human being? I am reading up on it as we chat and am way behind on the subject admittedly. However if this is the 'best shot', then that's great. If not, what other alternatives are there that you know?

I'm sure you've been where I am now, so please bear with me. I am most appreciative of any assistance.

[reason]

You can do a lot even outside the scientific community - read here for the reasoning behind activism:

http://www.longevity...1&article_id=19
http://www.longevity...1&article_id=16

CR is showing its merit in humans at the moment; take a look at these points for example:

http://www.longevity...fm?news_id=1335
http://longevitymeme...cfm?news_id=890

Etc: http://www.google.co.....e restriction

Even if folks like Aubrey de Grey turn out to be right about CR having a negligable effect on maximum life span in humans, the evidence is pretty solid for CR as the best available way for most of us to increase our healthspans.

Fantastic Voyage isn't out on e-book so far as I'm aware - but wander into a bookstore and flip through the section on supplementation, see what you think.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[jwberg]

Much obliged guys

Will do.

[immortalbeing]

Check this guy Mercola I reckon he has plenty to offer

Good to see another Kiwi/Aussi on the right track. I recommend Yoga For the physical and mental DDiet

EG This guy BKS is still doing amazing physical stuff at 85 after being pretty sick early in life .

[jwberg]

Thank you very much. Much obliged.

I'll check that out straight away.

Frankly, I've been a little taken aback at the underwhelming response to what I would have considered the absolute basics of getting us through the maximum number of years before science can take over.

Thanks again. Where abouts are you located? I'm on the Gold Coast at the moment.

[geigertube]

Hi all.

Thanks for opening up this particular forum. It would appear sensible to me that our first port of call is to extend what we already have as we wait for what can be in the future (a greater chance of actually achieving it, right?).

With that end in mind, is anybody aware of a clearly-defined correct or reasonable set of normal foods that should be consumed by those with a view to expanding their current lifespan towards its theoretical maximum?

Could we look please, with the assistance of those skilled in this field, at compiling "the immortal diet"?

Thanks in advance.
Warwick.
SitesOnline.
www.soa.net

Hi,


Currently, Im trying to just eat a wide range of foods, drink a lot of water, get 30 minutes of exercise a day, and fast two days a week. (havent worked up to the fasting part yet, though. )

Steven

[immortalbeing]

Warwick.

I have to agree with you. It could be a year the difference between living and not living and eating is a pretty fundamental part of that. I have a full time nutritionist (pictured below.) My girlfriend she pretty much looks after our eating full time and doing the research as to what we need to be eating to maximize our potential. Around 20 hours plus per week over the past year. Her job is to keep us well. As you can see she is looking pretty healthly at 38. (Photo taken December 04)

I am getting it to Organic Green foods such as Spirulina Spirulina World which has the 2nd Highest Natural protein of any natural food on the planet and Fresh Organic Wheat grass Juice Wheat grass From what I understand fresh is the way to go and you just don't know how long things have been sitting on the shelf in stores. With the Wheat grass Juice you know it is ultra fresh and vitamin and mineral packed. With out the pesticides.
chlorella is another one that is supposed to be excellent. Mercola is pretty sold on it.




I am in New Plymouth .

[JonesGuy]

Optimal diet for life extension varies on a few thing. Gender, age, race, and physical status.

If you're over weight, you'll want to lose weight to have the greatest effect on your lifespan. The diet you use to lose weight is different than the diet you would use to extend life while lean. Diet is an important part of weight loss.

Once lean, I would recommend a steady diet of about 10 calories per lean body mass (lbm) per day. I am not yet sure about whether meal timing is important, but you'll want to keep a good eye on your insulin levels. In addition, research various vegetables for toxic effects. Like vitamins, too much of something can be bad. You wouldn't know it, but you can have too much celery and radishes.

The best diet is one consisting mostly of vegetables and fish. Tubers and grain aren't vegetables, and lobster and hamburger aren't seafood . I quite like using dairy as a source of protein (since too much fish is rather expensive), but I am not bothered by dairy - some people are.

At these level of calories, you'll want to be sure to eat enough fibre to have regular bowel movements. Luckily, getting these calories in the form of vegetables means that you can eat quite a bit of vegetable; this is why I recommend researching for unhealthy levels of vegetables and avoiding that level, using diversity to supplement instead.

I quite like the idea of eating the majority of fruits in the morning. I believe that this is the least taxing on the liver, since the glycogen levels there are already reduced. Avoiding an insulin rush is still important, which is why slow grazing is still the best idea.

[ima_tes]

diet is simple and holistic. you have distinct things that effect different potentialities for you personally. if you desire longevity that is one way to live and the superfoods become interesting. the regimen that may be realized as immortal in its nature is consumption of that which is vast and general in its application. remember that it is also multidimensional - all that one chooses to consume. one does not survive on the observable material alone. although one may make a decision based on observation. i would suggest a non biological source centered diet as partially optimal materially. the original microfood would potentially prove auspicious. also any source of energy wherein one is simply not consuming any forms of biological material as categorized and recognized by todays mind. healthy pure water is integral.

tes [sleep]

[rillastate]

Best advice. Make an appointment with your reputable local nutritionist, speak to him(her) about your goals, ask for advice, and then have him(her) refer you to a credible source of info where you can learn up on nutrition&diet with regards to aging. Different goals require different diet strategies.

[DukeNukem]

I'm sure Jwberg is long gone by now. ;-) And like him, I was "taken aback" by the lack of focus on nutrition when I joined this forum recently. And I'm especially annoyed by de Grey's total lack of nutritional optimization. Most likely, due to his extremely poor eating habits, he will not me an immortalist. The joke is strictly on him.

Also, I wouldn't place too much reliance on getting good longevity advice from a standard nutritionist. You'd be much better off getting advice from a true longevity specialist. I've yet to come across a nutritionist (in person, or an author) who could make good recommendations for a longevity-style eating program.

[rillastate]

[quote name='dukenukem']I'm sure Jwberg is long gone by now. ;-) And like him, I was "taken aback" by the lack of focus on nutrition when I joined this forum recently. And I'm especially annoyed by de Grey's total lack of nutritional optimization. Most likely, due to his extremely poor eating habits, he will not me an immortalist. The joke is strictly on him.[/quote]

Aubrey de Grey = inspiration. He's amazing. If there was a poster of him, i'd probably hang it up in my room somewhere. But I have to agree with you that it is most definately in his best interest to stop downplaying the importance of nutrition. Maybe he does eat very healthy and just downplays it in front of the public in order to keep the focus on the technological science. I was particularly troubled when, on the topic of nutrition, he sort of brushed off the idea of eating healthy and then said, "I just have good genes." Well, great. I have great genes too, but I still think it's important to emphasize healthy eating habits when asked about it, even if it's not your field of focus. I don't expect him to promote taking a gizillian supplements like Kurzweil since I think thats at the other extreme end of the spectrum, but I agree with you that he could do a better job when the topic of nutrition comes up. This issue aside, I still hold the utmost respect for him and his vision.


[quote]
Also, I wouldn't place too much reliance on getting good longevity advice from a standard nutritionist. You'd be much better off getting advice from a true longevity specialist. I've yet to come across a nutritionist (in person, or an author) who could make good recommendations for a longevity-style eating program.

Well, I think a knowledgable nutritionist could point you in a better direction than most people. I haven't read ray kurzweil's book, but I think he's made the biggest effort in forming a "longevity-style eating program." But other than that, I don't know either.

,
Derek

[DukeNukem]

In a email to me about this topic, he trotted out that totally bogus line, too, "I have good genes." Oh really? I truly, truly doubt his good genes can prevent the damage caused by drinking all the alcohol and fried foods that he admits he eats, not to mention his daily Snicker's bar. He's likely not overweight because he doesn't over eat, but this does not mean he is escaping the damage his body must endure by being attacked by this trans-fat, sugar packed, nutritionally bankrupt food. Good genes lose out every time to poor nutrition. Every time. He is full of poo poo if he thinks he's special or immune to this damaging diet.

You'd think a guy supposedly as smart as he is would be able to figure out the importance of nutrition. His good genes are going to turn on him sooner than he'd like, and when that happens we all lose.

[Mind]

Maybe De Grey figures the odds of getting revolutionary breakthroughs in anti-aging science are great enough that he doesn't have to worry. Just a guess.

That is the way I view CR. I don't follow CR because of the difficulty. Still I eat a balanced diet of mostly raw foods (including dried meat), and take a few supplements. I feel I have good handle on my nutritional needs and I am in good shape.

[eternaltraveler]

well.... The best nutrition in the world isn't going to save us. No matter what supplements we take we will still grow old, get feeble, and die.

Unless you have severe risks factors going on our diet is not going to have a radically significant impact on our life spans. I had a great grandfather who was a coal miner is whole life, he ate what by what we know now, to be a very unhealthy diet, but he still lived to be over 100. That's good genes. If he had eaten the best diet in the world based on all the wonderful science we know today how much do you really think it could have impacted his life expectancy? A year or two maybe?

If de grey eats as he says and his biological markers are still good changing over to a radical longevity diet isn't going to have a huge impact. His science can.

(dukenukem)

In a email to me about this topic, he trotted out that totally bogus line, too, "I have good genes." Oh really? I truly, truly doubt his good genes can prevent the damage caused by drinking all the alcohol and fried foods that he admits he eats, not to mention his daily Snicker's bar.

de grey might ask you why you go to all the trouble to eat this perfect diet without bothering to do yourself or fund directly scientific research that could add quite a bit more than a few years to your life (perhaps more if you have specific issues to deal with).

[DukeNukem]

Justin,

Eating wholesome foods, plus supplementation and resistance training, has a great chance of extending a healthy lifespan by several decades. Those might be the decades needs to take advantage of true immortality.

In my opinion, anyone concerned with immortality is a fool for not also doing what they can do ***now*** to extend their life.

I firmly believe that, based on current knowledge and only using exercise, food (including CR techniques) and supplements, we can all live to 100 years on average. It is *our* choice. So few make it to 100 because so few even try. I'm going to try, and I'm confident I'll make it. That gives me nearly 60 years to take advantage of coming breakthroughs. I'd rather have those 60 years rather than the 30-40 years I'd have eating the crap that de Grey eats. It's a foolish bet to piss away those extra decades, hoping that the breakthrough is sooner than later.

[eternaltraveler]

I agree with all your sentiments, and do my best to follow them (I suspect i won't be able to actually suceed until after I am a practicing physician).

However I do disagree that diet and supplementation alone can extend the lifespan of most people by "decades".

[DukeNukem]

>>> However I do disagree that diet and supplementation alone can extend the lifespan of most people by "decades". <<<

I also included resistance training. ;-) It's an important, synergistic threesome. And I'm certain that these three, done well, grant 20+ years of additional life.

[rillastate]

well.... The best nutrition in the world isn't going to save us. No matter what supplements we take we will still grow old, get feeble, and die.

As all of the scientists say, the healthier we are when the therapies arrive, the more effectively they will work and the more beneficial they will be to us. Proper diet, exercise and rest will not only result in a longer life, but will allow you to be MUCH healthier in your older age - mentally, physically, and emotionally. I would need a significant amount of hardcore credible evidence to change my views on this.

Unless you have severe risks factors going on our diet is not going to have a radically significant impact on our life spans. I had a great grandfather who was a coal miner is whole life, he ate what by what we know now, to be a very unhealthy diet, but he still lived to be over 100. That's good genes. If he had eaten the best diet in the world based on all the wonderful science we know today how much do you really think it could have impacted his life expectancy? A year or two maybe?

If de grey eats as he says and his biological markers are still good changing over to a radical longevity diet isn't going to have a huge impact. His science can.

Staying as healthy as you reasonably can does have an impact on our life spans and have a an impact as radically significant as the difference between Life and Death. People who eat healthy, exercising and rest properly throughout there lives are much healthier in their later years than those of people who lead unhealthy, sedentary, or stressful lives (or any combination of "unhealthy" choices).

de grey might ask you why you go to all the trouble to eat this perfect diet without bothering to do yourself or fund directly scientific research that could add quite a bit more than a few years to your life (perhaps more if you have specific issues to deal with).

De Grey is wrong on this issue. Going through the "trouble" of maintaining your health and living a healthy lifestyle is not as troublesome for as many people as you may believe. For many people making efforts to feel and be healthier physically, mentally and emotionally in the now makes more sense than "letting yourself go" in hopes of future technology one day finally making you a healthy individual again. It's still a long time before these therapies arrive and personally don't see a problem with wanting to stay healthy in the between time.

Remember in highschool or middle school days, some teachers started you out in the class with an 'A' average and told you all you had to do was maintain that grade. Most everyone starts out healthy, all we have to do is maintain that health.

I encourage you to investigate the benefits and importance of being reasonably healthy and the role it has on life in your middle and older years because eating bad, not exercising regularly, and not resting enough is doing a greater disservice to your overall wellbeing, in the now and in your future.

Sincerely,
Derek

[treonsverdery]

Durk pearson n sandy shaw wrote a book Life Etension The are big on supplements. a thing they did that said longevity to me was they tested the durability of either their erythrocytes or leukocytes, their cytes were three times less dead on a ROS challenge. its possibly a way to characterize if a food habit is longevity promoting whatever the idea

[Matt]

Maybe De Grey figures the odds of getting revolutionary breakthroughs in anti-aging science are great enough that he doesn't have to worry. Just a guess.

That is the way I view CR. I don't follow CR because of the difficulty. Still I eat a balanced diet of mostly raw foods (including dried meat), and take a few supplements. I feel I have good handle on my nutritional needs and I am in good shape.

Isn't it a rather good idea to be in the best shape possible for when these Life extension technologies / methods come about..

Even if CR doesn't actually extend the life span of long lived species like ourselves, It's likely that it will help us maintain an active life and not be so frail like a typical 80 year old. Like aubrey says... It will take more time to pull people back from the brink. Well that Edge may come alot sooner for some people so Its best to make the right choices.

[REGIMEN]

Ever seen an obese person living at a retirement home?

By the way, is DeGrey obese, or just a chubby charlie?

Anyway, for DeGrey to -perhaps- believe that he'll have access to "indefinite life extension" and ignore proper health requisites is pretty ballsy. More so because the very idea of iLE flys in the face of human history. Can anyone really be that certain of an "invention" they haven't completed yet?

[eternaltraveler]

Staying as healthy as you reasonably can does have an impact on our life spans and have a an impact as radically significant as the difference between Life and Death. People who eat healthy, exercising and rest properly throughout there lives are much healthier in their later years than those of people who lead unhealthy, sedentary, or stressful lives (or any combination of "unhealthy" choices).

I never said that diet and exercise have no impact on lifespan or health, the obviously do. What I said was that it has not been a radical impact. I still do my best to optimize my nutrition and exercise as much as possible; 1 year of extra life is still a whole year of extra life.

For some people it could be a radical difference. People who have specific problems that need to be addressed. The key word is "some".

Centurians in general didn't do anything particularly special over their lives to generate their unusual lifespans. At least not anything that MANY other people didn't also do and fail to reach that high age.

[DukeNukem]

>>> Centurians in general didn't do anything particularly special over their lives to generate their unusual lifespans. <<<

Actually, in areas that have the highest concentration of centenarians there's been a clear link to healthy eating. The Okinawan diet, for example, is perhaps the healthiest on Earth, and Okinawans have the highest percentage of centenarians of any regional population. (They also do not eat dairy.)

[Matt]

39.5 for every 100,000 people from okinawa become centarians compared to about 10 in every 100,000 Americans

Edited by Matt, 26 July 2005 - 11:18 PM.

[DukeNukem]

I've read over 100 books that focus on nutrition/food/diet, and The Okinawa Program is one of the top three: http://tinyurl.com/czk88 It's written by long time researchers of the people of this region, and the percentage of centenarians is a lot higher than 3.5%, though I do not remember the exact figure. And more impressive is that these people are still functional, useful contributors, pulling their own weight by doing daily activities. Nursing homes are not needed.

Also interesting is that when Okinawans move to areas that have Westerized food, they quickly get the same illnesses (and become overweight) as we do in America. People always talk about the Mediterranean diet as being the world's best, but it pales versus the Okinawan diet, which is the one I most closely follow.

I believe living to 100 is a choice. A choice practically no one makes in American -- instead we choose to live the "good life," at the sacrifice of 20-25 years of our life. Living to 100 requires effort, sacrifice and dedication. And since we are inherently lazy and live for the moment, almost no one makes this choice.

[eternaltraveler]

instead we choose to live the "good life," at the sacrifice of 20-25 years of our life

Ok, I think I see the source of our disconnect here. You are using the average american (fat, never exercises, does lots of very unhealthy things) as your baseline. If you are in this category you can do a lot to increase the quanity and quality of your life

I suppose I see it as so obvious that a person should exercise, eat right, and so on that I didn't consider your average joe out there.

However once you eliminate those clear health risks you run into the law of diminishing returns like a brick wall. Most okinawans who eat that diet you speak of do not live to be over a hundred even if a much higher percentage do. And it sucks for us guys here, most people over 100 are women. 85% of them.

I'd peg our life expectancy in the mid 90s if we do everything right by conventional means. Perhaps supplements we know of could push that over the 100 mark but we don't know enough about that because 50 year long studies haven't been done on things like krala. We seem to be arguing minor statistical difference anyway. 100 is a good round number to shoot for. Have at it.

I think we'll both wholeheartedly agree that the chances of making it much past 100 get smaller and smaller for each additional day, and are are approaching zero at 123 (and for us men somewhat younger) without something akin to SENS.

And I agree with you that every day we can add to our lives increases the chances of benefiting from that advance.