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Global Warming


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#271

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:12 AM

My own opinion is that we wont need to wait 10 years. From what I understand satellite data has shown surface warming and, simultaneously, high altitude cooling. I hear you biknut regarding the earlier predictions for global cooling. I find the most strident characteristic supporting that contention is the record, virtually like clock work 100,000 years cold, 10,000 years warm repeatedly for a million years or so. The transition from cold to warm appears slow and the transition from warm to cold very fast, a matter of a couple of decades. The entire curve as best we know it so far for the earth's climate for all of its existence appears to be a simple damped harmonic. First hot for a long time then cold for a long time, then hot for a shorter time and cold for a shorter time, with the cold taking up 90% of the time. The interglacial can then be seen as a precariously balanced state of affairs and the ice age conditions as the more stable usual set of conditions. Humans have not directed their influence to the situation to sustaining the interglacial. We have not organized our efforts in virtually any regard to global climate. Our influence has been basically a random one, not determined. When you hit a precariously balanced state with random perturbations the usual consequence is to cause it to collapse into its most stable state. The Hamaker hypothesis appears to detail the mechanism of how this occurs and unlike current predictions does have some real-time experimental evidence to support it. Have people noticed the record cold at the start of this year over a large portion of the Northern hemisphere? Think about it, ice age conditions are characterized by mile high glaciers on most of the Northern hemisphere. That means a lot of moisture needs to relocate from the oceans, from existing (and quickly dwindling) ice caps onto the land masses. It takes an influx of energy to do that and greenhouse gases appear to be the mechanism that does it. If you look at the Devil's Hole studies in Nevada or coral deposit analysies, you see what is considered the best time line for past ice age onslaughts, far more accurate than ocean sediment analysis. They show ice ages starting at peak carbon dioxide content when correlated with the ice core samples that have been made.

I truly expect we are going to see some record cold spells, record snow and ice on North temperate zones this winter. Under current trends we may lose a warming during the summer months at all in a few short years. The Hamaker hypothesis is detailed in some online books at http://www.remineralize.org .

So, biknut, I don't find you all wrong. I do find your time frame seems rather without basis and this stereotyping of a large portion of the human population, that is just plain too crass and ill founded that it really decreases the credibility of anything you have to share.

#272 platypus

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:25 PM

I believe the whole issue will die a fast death in the next 10 years as the climate starts to cool. (it's already peaked) and then you won't be able to find a scientist who claims he ever believed in global warming, just like it's hard to find one now that claims to have believed in global cooling in the 70s. I was in my 20s then, and I remember that at the time there were a great many. Probably in 10 years even platypus will claim he never believed in it.

I predict that in ten years you will have to admit that the planet is still warming up. I remember you saying that if the planet is still warming up then, you'll change your mind. I'll be first to congratulate you if you do.

Supercomputers are now 1 million times faster than in the 70s. The predictions of today are based on physical models, not "opinions" like back in the day. I hope you realise there's a difference.

After reading everything I can find both pro and con, I've come to the conclusion man made global warming is total crap. The warming we see is natural and nothing out of the ordinary. We peaked in 1998.

Have you studied any natural sciences, or do you make you conclusions as a complete layman?

#273 biknut

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:31 PM

So, biknut, I don't find you all wrong. I do find your time frame seems rather without basis and this stereotyping of a large portion of the human population, that is just plain too crass and ill founded that it really decreases the credibility of anything you have to share.


Ha Ha, you guys are so serious all the time. That's what I was told by a naturalized citizen from China that works with a lot of Chinese Nationals at Texas Instruments.

I was just trying to be funny My apology's to Chinese Nationals and the faint of heart.

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#274 biknut

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:40 PM

Have you studied any natural sciences, or do you make you conclusions as a complete layman?


Many qualified scientists share my views. That's were they came from. That, and a lot of common sense.

#275 platypus

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:15 PM

Have you studied any natural sciences, or do you make you conclusions as a complete layman?


Many qualified scientists share my views. That's were they came from. That, and a lot of common sense.

And most scientists completely disagree for a reason. How do you explain the apparent fact that people's political views influence their stance on scientific issues and what you think about it?

#276 biknut

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 06:33 AM

How do you explain the apparent fact that people's political views influence their stance on scientific issues and what you think about it?


In the case of global warming this seems to be true, but it's dificult to explain.

I try my best to not let politics get in the way of what I perceive to be the truth. I've learned from experience to not blindly accept science without using common sense.

There were no humans in the Americas before 14,000 years ago.
There were no modern humans before 35,000 bc.
There's no life at the bottom of the ocean.

When I was a child science was just as sure about these statements being true as they are about global warming now. None of them turned out to be true. I didn't believe them even when I was a child because my common sense told me that was probably wrong.

I've seen that temperatures have risen a little from 1980 to 1998. Since then, almost 10 years have gone by and it hasn't gone up any further. One more thing science was wrong about.

Science seems so arrogant, but algore who isn't even a scientist is worse.

#277

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 08:46 AM

I saw a discussion on the main global warming wikepedia (apparently) that discussed the large error incorporated in surface temperatures. Sounds like they are inherently biased towards reporting warming due to proximity to human heat releasing activities.

It is the satellite observations I've been looking at more keenly as they do not incorporate so much risk as being effected by local heat sources. They appear to show a similar curve. Posted Image
This picture does not show a record of high altitude temperatures. My understanding from memory (haven't found the data immediately, give me some time) satellite records of high altitude temperatures show a steady decrease.

My interest is really getting piqued with the use of "politics" to justify denouncing some evidence while not providing some of your own. Could you please expand on this a bit? Seems it is such a subjective data dependent thing, "politics." And "common sense." What do you mean from your own learnings of these words?

biknut:

I try my best to not let politics get in the way of what I perceive to be the truth.

What exactly are you attempting to share here? What do you describe as "politics" that gets in the way of what you perceive?

I've learned from experience to not blindly accept science without using common sense.


I think we share something here, biknut. I am highly skeptical of claims made in the name of science mainly because I think there are many that are not science but rather, big money spreading anti-science propaganda to preserve and grow dependent markets, good for business, bad for people.

As far as I can tell, science is an art of sharing information in a trustworthy manner. It usually isn't too difficult to dig a little to find the vested interests that corrupt observations. I think it might be good to explore how we determine "good science" as opposed to corrupted rather than just lumping them both within the one word "science."

#278 biknut

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 02:28 PM

This is the satellite data I'm looking at from HadCRUT3

http://www.cru.uea.a...ta/temperature/

http://www.cru.uea.a.../hadcrut3gl.txt

1998...0.546
1999...0.296
2000...0.270
2001...0.409
2002...0.464
2003...0.473
2004...0.447
2005...0.482
2006...0.422
2007...0.437

Of course 07 still has 3 months data to be added. If you graph these last 10 years the graph is flat.

In other words no additional warming for 10 years.

To me this doesn't prove that the GW theory is right of wrong, but it does make me very skeptical about predictions of eminent doom. When you consider all the additional CO2 added to the atmosphere in the last 10 years it has to make a big question mark about the GW theory being right and man as it's cause.

If politics get in your way and you just WANT your heros like Algore to be right, or America to be bad, it tends to make people disregard facts that don't fit the theory.

Like no additional warming for 10 years. That temperature leads the CO2 rise and not the other way around. Like hurricanes are not becoming more frequent.

Then one last little thing is that the local weather here in Texas has been the best this year than in decades and below normal temeratures.

#279 platypus

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 09:33 PM

In other words no additional warming for 10 years.

If you look at your own time-series you can see that within the rising trend there are may periods when the temperature goes down for awhile. That's normal.

#280

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:29 AM

biknut, that data at http://www.cru.uea.a.../hadcrut3gl.txt is really very poorly displayed with no labels for the columns or rows. It is not a good reference. One has to go back to the original URL and see that there is no description other than "data set" at least readily available. The way they have the link in a table of sources and files you would think it was from a satellite. Do you have any idea what those numbers are? I begin to think they are talking degrees above normal which would make no sense in relation to your claim. Another thing is that you are linking to it as if it were satellite data and the first URL you give also implies that that is what it is BUT the time frame goes from 2007 to 1850! If there were any temperature sensing satellites up there in 1850 I might guess they were extraterrestrial.

Biknut, do you just have an aversion to science in general? Your effort here was a poor use of information as far as I can tell. Best to stick to quick explanatory displays of evidence that do not have a highly dubious nature about the supposed source of the data. I really think that is not data strictly from satellites and exactly what it is seems buried somewhere and really not all worth my time to seek but since the reference was provided by you, it would help your credibility if you could find the explanation of the data, copy and paste and/or give the link to it here. That data does seem to show an increase with perhaps 1998 an anomaly. If you look at the entire time series that really seems to be the case. Not only did you take the data from a suspect source that does not bother to make it easy to understand, you take only a sub-set that might begin to support your contention. When you look at the whole data set, it looks like a definite warming.

So:

1. Labels explaining what the data is are not readibly discernable.
2. The complete data set no matter what it is appears to negate your claim of the last ten years having no warming.

You still haven't answered my questions at all. Just one still very much interests me if you could take the time to at least seriously address this one, I'd forego any answers to any others as expressions of good will on your part. What exactly is the "politics" that gets in the way of your perceiving truth?

#281 Traclo

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 04:22 AM

Of course anyone who is keeping up with the global warming posts knows that now the fourth report by the IPCC has been released. Please anyone interested read some of it, or at least a summary of it.
Some choice comments about it:
Lord Rees, the president of the Royal Society, said, "This report makes it clear, more convincingly than ever before, that human actions are writ large on the changes we are seeing, and will see, to our climate. The IPCC strongly emphasises that substantial climate change is inevitable, and we will have to adapt to this. This should compel all of us - world leaders, businesses and individuals - towards action rather than the paralysis of fear. We need both to reduce our emissions of greenhouse gases and to prepare for the impacts of climate change. Those who would claim otherwise can no longer use science as a basis for their argument."

Another good one:
U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman told a news conference that the report was "sound science" and "As the president has said, and this report makes clear, human activity is contributing to changes in our earth's climate and that issue is no longer up for debate."

For anyone who doesn't know about this, it is a massive consolidation of over 40 countries scientists and authors (totaling over 600) consensus on the global warming debate. It supports humans contributing to the global temperature changes, while discounting many of the opposing theories. I'm no expert so maybe reading the report is the best way to inform yourself on this ;)

It seems hard now for the proponents of "Humans have nothing to do with this warming" to defend their case without resorting to fringe science.

#282 biknut

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 01:44 AM

My interest is really getting piqued with the use of "politics" to justify denouncing some evidence while not providing some of your own. Could you please expand on this a bit? Seems it is such a subjective data dependent thing, "politics." And "common sense." What do you mean from your own learnings of these words?

biknut: What exactly are you attempting to share here? What do you describe as "politics" that gets in the way of what you perceive?

I think we share something here, biknut. I am highly skeptical of claims made in the name of science mainly because I think there are many that are not science but rather, big money spreading anti-science propaganda to preserve and grow dependent markets, good for business, bad for people.

As far as I can tell, science is an art of sharing information in a trustworthy manner. It usually isn't too difficult to dig a little to find the vested interests that corrupt observations. I think it might be good to explore how we determine "good science" as opposed to corrupted rather than just lumping them both within the one word "science."



Here's a good explaination of what I'm talking about when I say politics plays a huge roll in the global warming debate. This guy is mainly talking about global warming and how it relates to hurricanes, but the exact same thing is going on with the global warming debate in general.

http://sciencepolicy...ion_of_sci.html

It is true that both the left and right are guilty of politicizing the issue. Whenever there's a lot money, and power that comes from controlling the money, you have to question the findings the most. That's why I say after you study everything you can on the subject you still have to apply common sense layman of not.

#283

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 05:23 PM

Here's a quote from the online biography of the author of that paper, biknut.

I have a B.A. in mathematics, an M.A. in public policy and a Ph.D. in political science, all from the University of Colorado.

http://sciencepolicy...elke/about.html

I understand from another paper of his I read, he sees insurance companies might be the profit motive behind the GW theorists. The model of risk he challenges is based on analysis by a team of 19 climate research credentialed scientists coordinated by a company specializing in risk assesment. The company that came out with the elevated insurance risk assesment that Dr. Roger Pielke Jr rather denounces, just came out with a new report again, yesterday, here: http://www.rms.com/N...U_2008_2012.asp Risk Management Solutions (RMS) acknowledges two possible theories of observed hurricane activity increase, a long term natural cycle or one that is also fueled by human activities to be on a greater and longer lasting upswing. Their team of experts reflected these two different theories. RMS does see evidence that the upswing is more severe than just the natural cycle

The 2007 hurricane season has seen 14 named storms, which is close to the annual average of 14.7 since 1995. It is the first season ever recorded in which 40% of hurricanes reached category 5 status, and the only one in which two maximum strength storms struck land.

In that paper they infer it is not wise to ignore the possibility that we are facing a greater impact of hurricane disaster than just the normal cycle.

Did you read that paper you point to biknut? It criticises the greater funding and media sharing of an announcement of a paper by 19 credentialed meteorological scientists stating that man's impact on the environment is fueling an inordinate increase in hurricane activity and shares the not well funded release of a one credentialed climate scientist who Pielke quotes "To me, this looks like the same people saying the same thing over and over again." NO DATA! Pielke is giving an ad hominem criticism and not any of the data itself! He does this again in the comments following the brief white wash where he cites another study with no link to it but gives a link to a debunking. Biknut? Have you looked for any of that data? From this 2001 paper http://www.sciencema...ll/293/5529/474 I show a graph of the Surface Sea Temperatures(SST) from 1870 to 1998,

Posted Image

Apparently the uncertainty goes up rather drastically as we go back in time with previous 1870 statistics considered unreliable and too infrequent. So this paper blaming a long natural cycle that Pielke refers to (with no direct link. I mean, come on, they can even post it online free if they really wanted people to see the data rather than just refer to it) has only been seen perhaps twice, the time scale does not go back far enough to see the entire first cycle starting apparently before 1870 if there truly was a cycle then at all. With the last cycle longer and of greater power than the previous might we expect this one to be of greater power and duration too?

That graph above is of the Surface sea temperatures, not the incidence of hurricanes whose reliability is gaged as only decent to 1944 and shown in the following:
Posted Image
from that same site http://www.sciencema...ll/293/5529/474 with a 2001 article from Science Magazine "The Recent Increase in Atlantic Hurricane Activity: Causes and Implications." As far as I can tell this theory of a cycle is based only on the possible observation of one wavelength, hardly sufficient to establish confidence in expecting the cycle to repeat at similar magnitudes and duration.

My father had a degree in political science as well as in entomology. Myself, I've come to consider the science of politics to be the science of spin, of misleading. In my eyes good science is inherently apolitical. An ad hominem attack on climate scientists and the statisticians of a risk assesment company by a political scientist does not look all that trustworthy to me. I guess you have a right to ignore the criticisms I've made of the characteristics of the data you have offered recently such as the apparent deliberate attempt to mislead by cropping data to almost support the dubious claim that temperatures are not on the rise.

Biknut, for someone who blames politics as corrupting perception of truth, you sure seem to depend on the tricks of the trade.

Edited by friendlyai, 21 November 2007 - 07:53 PM.


#284 biknut

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 05:57 AM

This is the reality, and it flys in the face of what's being said about global warming and hurricanes. The truth is, there's less of them. For some reason the media fails to mention it. This should be big news.

Historical Implications of Northern Hemisphere Tropical Cyclone Inactivity
*** Unless a dramatic and historical flurry of activity occurs in November and December, 2007 will rank as a historically inactive TC year for the Northern Hemisphere as a whole. Intense Cyclone Sidr indeed reduced the 2007 deficit from 33% to 30%. In fact, 2007 has moved AHEAD of 1981 in ACE-to-date. However, this will last until Nov. 18 -- since late-1981 saw several consecutive typhoons. During past 30 years, only 1977 has had less activity to date Jan 1-Nov 18. For the period of June 1 - Oct 31, only 1977 has experienced LESS tropical cyclone activity than 2007.

http://www.coaps.fsu...~maue/tropical/

and,

http://www.coaps.fsu...cdays_small.jpg

#285

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 06:43 PM

From http://www.euronet.n...ker/atlhur.html
Posted Image

Also, the frequency is not all that indicative, total power is what affects people.
From http://zfacts.com/p/109.html
Posted Image

One year does not make a trend but I see biknut, data is only important to you if it suppports your belief.

#286 biknut

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 08:35 PM

From http://www.euronet.n...ker/atlhur.html
Posted Image

Also, the frequency is not all that indicative, total power is what affects people.
From http://zfacts.com/p/109.html
Posted Image

One year does not make a trend but I see biknut, data is only important to you if it suppports your belief.


I could say the same about you. So there were some strong storms, that proves global warming?

Temperature is not going up.
Ocean temperature is not going up.
Number of hurricanes is not going up.

If you keep your head in a book reading what algore says you'll believe the world is coming to an end unless you pay higher taxes, but if you pull your head out, and look around you'll see nothing unusual is happening, and even if it is, it's now caused by us.

#287

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 09:23 PM

I could say the same about you. So there were some strong storms, that proves global warming?


If you bothered to read the previous posts I have made you can see that I don't neccesarily ascribe to the finding that there is an over all global warming.

Temperature is not going up.

It is in some places but I see if something does not agree with your preferred opinion you will ignore it and denounce it categorically.

Ocean temperature is not going up.


Please find out why the last graph I posted is in error and post that here. It appears you are getting flustered, biknut.

Number of hurricanes is not going up.


In general they do appear to be going up. Please tell me how the data I have presented here is biased and/or in error if you are capable.

If you keep your head in a book reading what algore says you'll believe the world is coming to an end unless you pay higher taxes, but if you pull your head out, and look around you'll see nothing unusual is happening, and even if it is, it's now caused by us.


You make claims without justification repeatedly, biknut. I have read speeches and an article on airport security Al Gore wrote before the 9/11 event but I have never read any of his books. Most of my time right now is with my head in a book on software.

...it's now caused by us


Isn't that rather antithetical to your whole premise?

I begin to think you do realize something subconsciously that fuels your inability to be truthful and reasonable as far as climate change goes. It challenges and points out the nonviability of current social experiments. You are not alone in wanting to avoid that understanding.

#288 biknut

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 10:12 PM

I don't understand what's so hard to understand. The general global warming theory says constantly adding massive amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere should constantly increase the temperature.

For the last decade that hasn't happened even though greenhouse gas has increased every year. That's why I don't believe the warming we've seen is caused by us. I don't believe we really even have clue. I wouldn't even rule out an ice age coming, but if it does it's brobably not going to be because of us.

The satellite data backs my position

#289 platypus

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 12:05 PM

I don't understand what's so hard to understand. The general global warming theory says constantly adding massive amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere should constantly increase the temperature.

For the last decade that hasn't happened even though greenhouse gas has increased every year. That's why I don't believe the warming we've seen is caused by us. I don't believe we really even have clue. I wouldn't even rule out an ice age coming, but if it does it's brobably not going to be because of us.

The satellite data backs my position

What satellite data exactly? As far as I can tell the HadCRUT3 data you refer to does not include satellite data at all:

http://www.cru.uea.a...ta/temperature/

You better find that global satellite dataset that supports your position or retract. Also, I've tried to explain many times that a warming trend does not mean that every single year is warmer than the present, which is clearly visible in HadCRUT3 too.

#290 platypus

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 12:51 PM

If you keep your head in a book reading what algore says you'll believe the world is coming to an end unless you pay higher taxes, but if you pull your head out, and look around you'll see nothing unusual is happening, and even if it is, it's now caused by us.

The models tell us that greenhouse gases are partly to blame as current climate cannot be reconstructed in the model runs without taking human influence to the atmosphere into account. Is this truth somehow inconvenient or why do you keep on denying it all the time?

#291 biknut

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 02:10 PM

I've tried to explain many times that a warming trend does not mean that every single year is warmer than the present, which is clearly visible in HadCRUT3 too.


So how many decades have to go by for you to stop making excuses for the lack of additional warming? By now at the very least, you should be getting a little suspicious that what you've been told may not be right?

#292 biknut

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 02:14 PM

Is this truth somehow inconvenient or why do you keep on denying it all the time?


Are you algore's twin?

#293 platypus

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 03:18 PM

So how many decades have to go by for you to stop making excuses for the lack of additional warming? By now at the very least, you should be getting a little suspicious that what you've been told may not be right?

When I look at the data at the Figure SPM.4 in the Summary for policymakers of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report it's clear that the Global temperature has been rising also since 1998. I think you data is wrong.

Anyway, I still liked you saying that you will change your mind if warming continues for yet another decade. 10 years is a long wait but could we agree on something happening within 5 years that we could have a friendly bet on? (for a bottle of good Scotch for example).

#294 biknut

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 03:54 PM

When I look at the data at the Figure SPM.4 in the Summary for policymakers of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report it's clear that the Global temperature has been rising also since 1998. I think you data is wrong.

Anyway, I still liked you saying that you will change your mind if warming continues for yet another decade. 10 years is a long wait but could we agree on something happening within 5 years that we could have a friendly bet on? (for a bottle of good Scotch for example).


Yes, I think they're wrong.

Here's the global avg. now including October 2007.

1998..........0.546
1999..........0.296
2000..........0.270
2001..........0.409
2002..........0.464
2003..........0.473
2004..........0.447
2005..........0.482
2006..........0.421
2007..........0.429 lacks November, and December data

As you can see, there's no rising trend. Actually flat for the last decade. It was widely reported at the beginning of the year that 2007 would be the warmest on record.

IPCC data is suspect because they are pushing a political agenda, and based on estimates.

"Why do global and hemispheric temperature anomalies differ from those quoted in the IPCC assessment and the media?

We have areally averaged grid-box temperature anomalies (using the HadCRUT3v dataset), with weighting according to the area of each 5° x 5° grid box, into hemispheric values; we then averaged these two values to create the global-average anomaly. However, the global and hemispheric anomalies used by IPCC and in the World Meteorological Organization and Met Office news releases were calculated using optimal averaging. This technique uses information on how temperatures at each location co-vary, to weight the data to take best account of areas where there are no observations at a given time. The method uses the same basic information (i.e. in future HadCRUT3v and subsequent improvements), along with the data-coverage and the measurement and sampling errors, to estimate uncertainties on the global and hemispheric average anomalies. The more elementary technique (used here) produces no estimates of uncertainties, but our results generally lie within the ranges estimated by optimum averaging. The constraint that the average be zero over 1961-90 in the optimal averages also adds a small offset compared to the other data described here."

Edited by biknut, 23 November 2007 - 03:58 PM.


#295 platypus

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 04:45 PM

Yes, I think they're wrong.

Here's the global avg. now including October 2007.

As far as I can see that's not based on satellite data, so it must be sparse. Also, atmospheric warming should be looked at too.

As you can see, there's no rising trend. Actually flat for the last decade. It was widely reported at the beginning of the year that 2007 would be the warmest on record.

Predictions about the future are always uncertain.

IPCC data is suspect because they are pushing a political agenda, and based on estimates.

I don't buy that and of course measurement datasets are based on estimation.

#296

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 06:52 PM

If you look at that "data" you see that 1998 virtually cancels out 2000, being twice as large. With or without these the trend is definitely skewed towards an increase. Again, the data is apparently degrees above the normal expected. Biknut, you can claim it shows no change in temperature but it is apparently degrees above the norm, and it shows a general increase. If you take it back to any earlier than 1998 it looks even more skewed towards an increase. That is all assuming the data means something which is highly questionable as it is so poorly displayed at the originating site and includes a data range that makes it highly questionable as being satellite recordings.

biknut, I must conclude that you aim to deceive.

#297 biknut

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 05:55 AM

If you look at that "data" you see that 1998 virtually cancels out 2000, being twice as large. With or without these the trend is definitely skewed towards an increase. Again, the data is apparently degrees above the normal expected. .

biknut, I must conclude that you aim to deceive.


Let's put this theory to the test and see who's the biggest deceiver, me of the the mouth piece of algore.

Remember I was only talking about the last 10 years, but if we throw out the hottest and coolest years as you suggest we end up with a 8 year global temperature average of .428 above normal. What's this year so far? .429, you call that "skewed towards an increase." Yeah right a thousandths of a degree trend. Stop the f-in world we're all going to die. And what was the average of the last full year on record, 2006? Oh gee, .421 not even as high as our 8 year average.

Don't like that result? OK, let's not count this year either because it's not complete yet. That gives a 7 year average of .427 So what's the last full year on record, 2006? Oh gee, still less .421. No real trend "skewed towards an increase" there.

How about we just check what the real 10 year average is so far. You come out a little better now. 5 thousandths of a degree warmer than the 10 year average at .424. This years not over yet though, and remember last year was only .421, and that's below the 10 year average. So if you still want to contend that the trend is "skewed towards an increase" go ahead, but I stand by by statement that the trend is flat.

It is true that the last 27 years have been above the global average, but the temperature is always either above or below the global average. It never stays at the average very long. Right now is not unusually far above the average. As a matter of fact it's exactly where it should be. The last peak below average was even more below than it is above now. In other words nothing unusual is going on.

So you see, I'm not deceiveing when I claim the temperature rise has gone flat.

#298 biknut

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 05:57 AM

If you look at that "data" you see that 1998 virtually cancels out 2000, being twice as large. With or without these the trend is definitely skewed towards an increase. Again, the data is apparently degrees above the normal expected. .

biknut, I must conclude that you aim to deceive.


Let's put this theory to the test and see who's the biggest deceiver, me of the the mouth piece of algore.

Remember I was only talking about the last 10 years, but if we throw out the hottest and coolest years as you suggest we end up with a 8 year global temperature average of .428 above normal. What's this year so far? .429, you call that "skewed towards an increase." Yeah right a thousandths of a degree trend. Stop the f-in world we're all going to die. And what was the average of the last full year on record, 2006? Oh gee, .421 not even as high as our 8 year average.

Don't like that result? OK, let's not count this year either because it's not complete yet. That gives a 7 year average of .427 So what's the last full year on record, 2006? Oh gee, still less .421. No real trend "skewed towards an increase" there.

How about we just check what the real 10 year average is so far. You come out a little better now. 5 thousandths of a degree warmer than the 10 year average at .424. This years not over yet though, and remember last year was only .421, and that's below the 10 year average. So if you still want to contend that the trend is "skewed towards an increase" go ahead, but I stand by my statement that the trend is flat.

It is true that the last 27 years have been above the global average, but the temperature is always either above or below the global average. It never stays at the average very long. Right now is not unusually far above the average. As a matter of fact it's exactly where it should be. The last peak below average was even more below than it is above now. In other words nothing unusual is going on.

So you see, I'm not deceiveing when I claim the temperature rise has gone flat.



#299 platypus

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 06:22 AM

It is true that the last 27 years have been above the global average, but the temperature is always either above or below the global average. It never stays at the average very long. Right now is not unusually far above the average. As a matter of fact it's exactly where it should be. The last peak below average was even more below than it is above now. In other words nothing unusual is going on.

So you see, I'm not deceiveing when I claim the temperature rise has gone flat.

Well, there are plenty of unusual things going on with Arctic regions, which should warm first in a global warming scenario.

Check out the trend, it's still up. 1998 was a strong El Nino year:

http://upload.wikime...ture_Record.png

A 0.5-degree increase in global average is not peanuts, the arctic has already warmed up by several degrees.

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#300 platypus

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 06:25 AM

This is very informative:

http://en.wikipedia....Attribution.png




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