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Potassium-R-Lipoic Acid


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135 replies to this topic

#121 angelfire

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 03:40 AM

^ another handle of the troll. The good thing about it is we can identify the troll names when they pop up again later.

Meanwhile, if anyone can post the link to a study showing that r-ala polymerises in the stomach and becomes inactive, please do. Why would the early studies with racemic ala and ordinary r-ala have shown positive results if the r-ala all became inactive in the stomach?

Why don't you test it yourself?

#122 xanadu

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 06:37 PM

angelfire wrote:

"Why don't you test it yourself?"

I don't have the laboratory facilities and am unable to determine if the r-ala was active or not. In the original studies, the ala was taken by mouth. That's a good indication that if does not harm the ala being in the stomach.

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#123 kevink

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 02:47 PM

Anyway, regular ALA works too! Xanadu you are completely right to question the vendors who claim that only R-ALA is effective!


What is it with this thread? I think it's so long that people get confused.

Nobody ever said that only R-LA is effective. No quoted vendor or study (at least from anything I said) said that only R-LA is effective. In fact I (and probably others) already pointed out that ALA is probably a good call, especially in the case of conditions like diabetic neuropathy. If I recall correctly (trying to purge this conversation out of my mind), the ALA mixture increased the availability of the r-la component in some instances. I suppose that was versus unstabilized R-LA. On the other hand, there was also some talk of the s-la portion interfering with r-la effectiveness.

What many studies have said is that the thing in ALA that produces the benefit is the R-LA half of the mixture.

Anyway - the main point is that all this will be sorted out as more studies come online. If one automatically throws out all the patent information and vendor research, one can come to a very different conclusion about the best course of action. Why some direct so much hostility towards AOR and Geronova is beyond me - it seems downright ignorant from where I stand. Hopefully, we'll start seeing some more data using stabilized forms of r-la versus racemic ALA. Until then, all anyone can do is look at the available data and draw their own conclusions.

Edit: Added more narrative.

Edited by kevink, 21 February 2006 - 03:15 PM.


#124 mitkat

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 05:23 PM

^This thread IS long, and not so much confusing as it is annoying. It has clouded my judgement over ALA in general enough to make me want to switch to NAC. Assuming I'm not bloating with mercury, does anyone have a problem with that, especially with ALCAR?? I've asked this before, but it must of got lost in this ridiculousness.

#125 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 05:30 PM

By the same token (alternatives to RLA for mitochondrial protection when using ALCAR) isn't chlorophyllin a potent mitochondrial antioxidant? Its like $6 for a month's worth and it has the pleasant side effect of making your poo smell like a fresh vegetable salad. Plus it prevents cancer.

Any reason that wouldn't work?

#126 mitkat

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:04 PM

I take spirulina (1 gram), and was taking chlorella (500 mg), I didn't know it was potent enough in the face of ALCAR. Score another point for the vegetable massive!

#127 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:19 PM

Well I don't know if chlorophyllin can protect the mitochondria from free radicals as well as r-lipoic acid can, I'm just raising the possibility so that someone more knowledgeable can confirm it or tell me I'm full of sh*t ;)

#128 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:36 PM

Some support for the idea:

Chlorophyllin as an effective antioxidant against membrane damage in vitro and ex vivo.

Kamat JP, Boloor KK, Devasagayam TP.

Cell Biology Division, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, 400 085, Mumbai, India.

Chlorophyllin (CHL), the sodium-copper salt and the water-soluble analogue of the ubiquitous green pigment chlorophyll, has been attributed to have several beneficial properties. Its antioxidant ability, however, has not been examined in detail. Using rat liver mitochondria as model system and various sources for the generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) we have examined the membrane-protective properties of CHL both under in vitro and ex vivo conditions. Oxidative damage to proteins was assessed as inactivation of the enzymes, cytochrome c oxidase and succinic dehydrogenase besides formation of protein carbonyls. Damage to membrane lipids was measured by formation of lipid hydroperoxides and thiobarbituric acid reactive substances. The effect of this compound on the antioxidant defense system was studied by estimating the level of glutathione and superoxide dismutase. ROS were generated by gamma-radiation, photosensitization, ascorbate-Fe(2+), NADPH-ADP-Fe(3+) and the peroxyl radical generating agent, azobis-amidopropane hydrochloride. Our results show that CHL is highly effective in protecting mitochondria, even at a low concentration of 10 microM. The antioxidant ability, at equimolar concentration, was more than that observed with ascorbic acid, glutathione, mannitol and tert-butanol. When CHL was fed to mice at a dose of 1% in drinking water, there was a significant reduction in the potential for oxidative damage in cell suspensions from liver, brain and testis. To examine the possible mechanisms responsible for the observed antioxidant ability we have studied the reaction of CHL with the potent ROS in the form of hydroxyl radical and singlet oxygen. The compound shows a fairly high rate constant with singlet oxygen, in the order of 1.3x10(8) M(-1) s(-1). In conclusion, our studies showed that CHL is a highly effective antioxidant, capable of protecting mitochondria against oxidative damage induced by various ROS.

Chlorophyllin as a protector of mitochondrial membranes against gamma-radiation and photosensitization.

Boloor KK, Kamat JP, Devasagayam TP.

Cell Biology Division, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai, India.

Ionizing radiation and photosensitization are highly damaging events and they generate oxygen-derived free radicals as well as excited species. However, the types as well as extent of reactive oxygen species (ROS) differ. They have been linked to various pathological conditions. Hence natural compounds capable of preventing oxidative damage induced by these agents may have potential applications. Chlorophyllin (CHL), the water-soluble analogue of chlorophyll, has been examined for its ability to inhibit membrane damage induced by y-radiation and photosensitization involving methylene blue plus visible light. Using rat liver mitochondria as model systems the mechanisms of damage induced by these two agents as well as its possible prevention by CHL have been examined. The parameters used were lipid peroxidation as assessed by formation of thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS) and 4-hydroxynonenal (4-HNE), protein oxidation besides glutathione (GSH) and superoxide dismutase (SOD). Peroxidation increases with radiation dose, in the range of 75-600 Gy. A similar observation also was observed with photosensitization, as a function of time. CHL, at a concentration of 10 microM offered a high degree of protection against radiation and photosensitization as indicated by decreased peroxidation, protein oxidation as well as the restoration of GSH and SOD. When compared with the established antioxidants, ascorbic acid and GSH, CHL offered a much higher degree of protection. Pulse radiolysis studies show that this compound has a relatively high rate constant with hydroxyl radical (*OH), a crucial species generated during y-radiation. Hence the studies show that CHL is a potent antioxidant in mitochondrial membranes.



#129 mitkat

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:16 PM

Again funk, kudos on the digging. I like the idea of using chlorophyl, it's cheap, totally natural, and non-toxic.

I have done some schoolwork in regards to it's folklore herbal use in cases of IBS, crohn's, etc, and your "salad" reference above, heh, but I've never researched the hard science side of it, this is pretty exciting actually. Between chlorophyll, l-carnosine, NAC, grape seed extract, and a vegetarian diet I may have the bases covered for ALCAR, anti-oxidant wise. Reasonable?

#130 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:26 PM

I would think so in my uneducated amateur opinion.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're considering using chlorophyllin, not chlorophyll correct? Chlorophyllin is a semi-synthetic version of chlorophyll that is water-soluble and has all the great effects touted everywhere. Chlorophyll itself can't do nearly as much.

#131 mitkat

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:38 PM

Yeah, I mean't Chlorophyllin. I get in that habit of just typing chlorophyll because I've typed it so many times ;) . Thanks again.

I also write my name Tim as Time when I'm very, very tired to give you an idea.

#132 meatwad

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 08:03 AM

Where would be a good source for chlorphyllin? BAC doesn't seem to have it.

#133 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 01:51 PM

AOR Ortho-Core contains a good amount of it (300mg).

Here are a couple sources of isolated chlorophyllin:

http://www.iherb.com/chlorophyll.html

http://www.vitacost....inwithLOptiZinc

LEF makes chlorophyllin which you can get from relentless improvement, but for basic supplements that don't take any formulation wizardry or special manufacturing, I'm getting sick of paying a premium for LEF and AOR when companies like Jarrow, NOW, and NSI give you the same thing for so much less.

edit: Actually, I notice the LEF chlorophyllin only contains 1mg of copper and NSI's contains 3mg. Apparently the copper in sodium-copper chlorophyllin is not very bioavailable, but still, it seems like you could ingest an unhealthy amount of copper from the NSI product, especially if you are taking it in effective doses of 300-400mg chlorophyllin daily. NOW doesn't list the copper content of theirs. Hmph.

#134 syr_

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 03:16 PM

AOR Ortho-Core contains a good amount of it (300mg).

Here are a couple sources of isolated chlorophyllin:

http://www.iherb.com/chlorophyll.html

http://www.vitacost....inwithLOptiZinc

LEF makes chlorophyllin which you can get from relentless improvement, but for basic supplements that don't take any formulation wizardry or special manufacturing, I'm getting sick of paying a premium for LEF and AOR when companies like Jarrow, NOW, and NSI give you the same thing for so much less.

edit: Actually, I notice the LEF chlorophyllin only contains 1mg of copper and NSI's contains 3mg.  Apparently the copper in sodium-copper chlorophyllin is not very bioavailable, but still, it seems like you could ingest an unhealthy amount of copper from the NSI product, especially if you are taking it in effective doses of 300-400mg chlorophyllin daily.  NOW doesn't list the copper content of theirs.  Hmph.


I take LEF product for that reason, and paying 3 times what would cost NOW product :(

Look at this for copper content on NOW product:
http://store.yahoo.c...erb/chloro.html
I think the copper version is similar. 6mg of copper are way too much.
One could take 1 cap of NOW clorophylling and a 20mg zinc (no less - funnyly enough I take AOR zinc-copper balance already) supplement, with EACH meal.

For my needs, 3 cap of LEF chlorophyllin a day would provide also a decent zinc intake so I can drop the zinc-copper product and spend about the same, without risking of taking too much zinc and too much copper :)

#135 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:04 PM

Yeah I should have known making a statement like "why pay a premium for LEF or AOR" was dangerous; figures that two minutes after I posted that I would find a good reason to pay the premium. [mellow]

On a related note, how does AOR manage to put 300mg of chlorophyllin in Ortho-Core and only have 1.5mg of copper in it? Are they not listing the copper contained in the chlorophyllin? Things that make you go hmmm....

edit: I looked, and they list the 300mg of chlorophyllin as "Chlorophyllin Complex" (which of course contains copper) but do not add that to the total copper in Ortho-Core. The 1.5mg listed on the label comes from copper citrate. That's kinda shady and irresponsible isn't it? Maybe they are 110% confident that the copper in chlorophyllin complex is not bioavailable, but no one else seems to want to take that gamble. LEF adds zinc to inhibit absorption of the 1mg copper in their product.

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#136 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:17 PM

This is an excellent article that anyone who is interested in chlorophyllin should read (addresses optimal dosing and free copper concerns):

http://www.lef.org/p...prtcl-149.shtml




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