26 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

Below is an attachment from a series of monographs.

Monographs are a written account or description of a single thing, or class of things; a special treatise on a particular subject of limited range.

I hope that all can benefit from reading the attached monographs.

In most situations they are reasonably straight forward and not to hard to read. However, if for some reason you require further explanation of the scientific mumbo jumbo contained within the monographs, feel free to PM me and I will do my best to assist you.

Enjoy the reading

Attached Files

•  DHEA.pdf   30.46KB   342 downloads

[jaydfox]

Hey, I haven't checked, is this post a double posting of the other post on DHEA, or are they different?
http://www.imminst.o...T&f=6&t=9956&s=

[zoolander]

Yes a double posting. I really need to work out a few things.

[biknut]

I think I'm going to start taking DHEA. This Is some of what I've read about It.

DHEA has properties of its own that benefit both
men and women. Men maintain their highest levels
of this hormone in their early 20s. By age 50 there is
a 50% drop in DHEA, and by age 60 a man possesses
only one-third the level he had as a young man.

Aside from aiding in the production of
testosterone and estrogen, DHEA acts as a
neurohormone in the brain, protecting it from the
effects of excitotoxicity and improving mood. DHEA
also improves immune function and reduces
abdominal (belly) fat. Accumulation of belly fat is
associated with hypertension, diabetes and
advanced atherosclerosis.

I have hypertension, and belly fat that I'd love to get rid of.

[FunkOdyssey]

biknut, you should consider getting a blood test done for DHEA-S before and after supplementation so that you can adjust your dose accordingly. The ideal healthy 20-something year old range is about 400-550 ng/ml. Without testing, you are taking a wild shot in the dark and will likely under or overshoot the optimal range to the detriment of your health.

For me, 50mg of DHEA raised my levels from 218 to 414ng/ml. There is no set formula as everyone's absorption rates seem to differ and I'm sure the brand used and other variables come into play, hence the importance of testing.

[systemicanomaly]

I think I'm going to start taking DHEA...

DHEA has properties of its own that benefit both
men and women...

Aside from aiding in the production of
testosterone and estrogen, DHEA acts as a
neurohormone in the brain, protecting it from the
effects of excitotoxicity and improving mood...

Note that DHEA, as with other hormone supplements, may not fare with the digestive system. The normal path has hormones excreted from glands within the body directly(?) into the bloodstream. Our digestive systems can be quite hostile to hormones. I had supplemented with DHEA for 6 months and found out that my DHEA-S levels did not increase significantly. I was advised to try sublingual DHEA or DHEA skin creams to overcome this problem. I tried both versions of DHEA and found out that my DHEA-S levels shot thru the roof in just 3 months. You should probably test your levels periodically to make sure that you are not getting too little or too much.

You might also want to look into 7-Keto-DHEA and Pregnenolone. 7-Keto is a natural metabolite of DHEA that provides similar benefits w/o its associated side effects. Note that little or no 7-Keto-DHEA will convert into estrogen and testerone. It is used for mild memory problems, stamina and weight management w/o the safety problems of highly elevated levels of estrogen and testerone. Pregnenolone is the hormone precursor to DHEA. It is claimed that Preg is superior to DHEA for memory & joint pain concerns. Not only does Preg generate actions of its own, some moderate percentage of it is converted to DHEA. Excessive amounts of estrogen and testerone production are not as common with Preg and with DHEA to my knowledge.

~gr

[FunkOdyssey]

What brands of oral DHEA did you use and what dosage, just to compare notes? Also did you take it with or without food?

As far as I know, the best absorbed oral method would be micronized DHEA on an empty stomach first thing in the morning (that's what I've done).

[biknut]

funkodyssey and systemicanomaly,

Thanks for that good advice. As a matter of fact that Is the advice given with the Information I read, I just didn't copy It all down. This Is what It said.

Because DHEA has so many beneficial effects of its own, everyone over age 50 should have a DHEA blood level exam done at some point. If the level is low, you should supplement with 10 mg. of DHEA and get tested again in about three weeks. If it is still low, increase the dose by another 10 mg. and get tested again. Once it is back in the normal range, stop there since excessive use of higher doses can lead to problems.

One thing I'm not clear on Is, what Is the normal range?

[FunkOdyssey]

Its in the neighborhood of 400-550ng/ml. I'll see if I can find references.

[FunkOdyssey]

From LEF's DHEA Replacement Protocol:

Normal: Men 280-640 ug/dL Women 65-380ug/dL
Ideal: Men 500-640 ug/dL Women 250-380ug/dL

DHEA Replacement Protocol

Life Extension Foundation Recommendations

Because of the overwhelming evidence connecting low levels of DHEA to the degenerative diseases of aging, Life Extension suggests that all people over age 40 begin DHEA therapy. For most people, the starting dose of DHEA is between 15-75 mg, taken in one daily dose. Many studies have used a daily dose of 50 mg. One recent study showed that doses under 30 mg were not enough to significantly raise blood levels of DHEA in young adults (Cameron DR et al 2005). At these levels, DHEA has shown no major side effects.

Ideally, DHEA replacement therapy should begin with blood testing to establish a base range. Since almost everyone over age 35-40 has lower than optimal levels of DHEA, most people begin supplementation and test their blood DHEA levels later to make sure they are taking the proper dose. Normal serum reference ranges and ideal ranges of DHEA-S are:
  Normal  Ideal
Men  280-640 ug/dL  500-640 ug/dL
Women  65-380 ug/dL  250-380 ug/dL

After 3 to 6 weeks, another test is recommended to measure serum DHEA. All individuals react differently to DHEA replacement therapy, so it's a good idea to closely monitor your blood levels and side effects. If side effects appear, it may be possible to add 7-Keto DHEA and reduce the dose of DHEA.

Those with liver disease should use DHEA sublingual tablets, which bypass liver metabolism. Otherwise, capsules containing the more common micronized DHEA are quite effective in restoring DHEA to youthful ranges.

[biknut]

funkodyssey, That's real good info. Do you know much about the Testing? How much does it usually cost. Is it always necessary to draw blood? I thought I saw a reference to saliva testing. Have you heard anything about that?

[FunkOdyssey]

The best way is to have your doctor order it, in which case it should be covered by insurance. Alternatively, you could order a blood test through LEF here:

http://www.lef.org/n...emLC004697.html

When you have a blood test performed, you are actually looking for DHEA-sulfate, which is the most prevalent form of DHEA in your body and has a much longer half-life than DHEA itself. Because DHEA has a short half-life and fluctuates throughout the day, DHEA-S gives you a better reference point. In my opinion, blood testing for DHEA-S is superior to saliva testing for the same reason (saliva will only give you a snapshot of free circulating DHEA at the moment you take the sample -- DHEA-S does not make it into the saliva).

[systemicanomaly]

What brands of oral DHEA did you use and what dosage, just to compare notes?  Also did you take it with or without food?

As far as I know, the best absorbed oral method would be micronized DHEA on an empty stomach first thing in the morning (that's what I've done).

It was more than 10 yrs ago (I was in my 40s at the time) when I 1st started supplementing with DHEA & don't quite recall all the details. Way back in 1995, Life Enhancement Products re-introduced DHEA into the US. The stuff that I was getting from them back then was pure pharmaceutical grade DHEA, manufactured in Europe. I would usually take it 1st thing in the morning, just before breakfast. As I recall, I started with daily dosages of 25mg & then later bumped it up to 50mg. Other domestic suppliers such as Smart Basics (now distr by VitaCost) and TwinLabs started offering DHEA products soon after this. I had tried their products as well as others that became available. Some of those manufacturers recoemmended taking their product with a meal (which I did on acassion).

Micronized DHEA made an appearance shortly after this. I started using this form & I think that I may have experienced a slight improvement in results with this form. After some disappointing gains in DHEA-S levels (after some initial minor gains) , I made some inquiries to the testing lab, Life Enhancement & other resources. The consensus of the feedback that I received back then was that some (many) ppl were not able to get significant levels of DHEA into their systems becuz of hostile digestive systems.

It was suggested that I try sublingual & cream version of DHEA. After 3 months of supplementing with both of these alternate forms, my levels increased significantly. After another 3 months, my levels were quite a bit higher than what was considered normal for a male in his 20s. At that point, I decreased my supplement levels by more than half.

Currently, I am using only 10mg of sublingual Pregnenolone (from Source Naturals) 5 times a week as well as 25mg of 7-Keto-DHEA (from NOW Foods) every other day. Every month or two I switch from the sublingual Preg to a Pregnenolone body cream from Life-Flo.

~gr

Edited by systemicanomaly, 31 March 2006 - 09:06 AM.

[syr_]

You can homebrew a transdermal DHEA with a good carrier like DMSO, which would be definitely better than using a cream (whic is intended for outer skin penetration, not deep).

For HRT goals as low 25mg /day will work.

[systemicanomaly]

Thanks for that good advice....

Because DHEA has so many beneficial effects of its own, everyone over age 50 should have a DHEA blood level exam done at some point. If the level is low, you should supplement with 10 mg. of DHEA and get tested again in about three weeks. If it is still low, increase the dose by another 10 mg. and get tested again. Once it is back in the normal range, stop there since excessive use of higher doses can lead to problems...

Once an individual has started supplementing with DHEA (or Pregnenolone) for a while, a number of reputable sources recommend taking a "hormone holiday" every so often. The supplementation of some types of hormones can inhibit the body's own production of those hormones. Some ppl will use a hormone supplement daily for 3 weeks (20-25days) and then gone on a short hormone hiatus for the rest of the month. Others supplement on a weekly cycle: ON for 4-5 days and then OFF 2-3 days.

Edited by systemicanomaly, 01 April 2006 - 07:57 AM.

[systemicanomaly]

You can homebrew a transdermal DHEA with a good carrier like DMSO, which would be definitely better than using a cream (whic is intended for outer skin penetration, not deep).

For HRT goals as low 25mg /day will work.

Good point. Some creams may, indeed, be primarily topical agents. I'm not really certain of the bioavialability of the Life-Flo cream that I mentioned above but statements that I've read in various places indicate that this may not be a problem. Some products recommend applying their hormone cream to parts of the body that will maximize its access to the bloodstream such as the inner arms, chest, back of the knees, etc. Quite a few manufacturers of hormone creams also indicate that the transdermal form is superior to conventional (non-sublingual) oral forms... "transdermal absorption is superior to oral supplementation because it avoids first-pass metabolism of the active ingredients by the liver. The topical delivery system helps prevent unnecessary strain on the liver."


Came across this at one site...

The effective transdermal application of Preg & DHEA hormones is possible because these prerequisites are all met:

~ These steroidal hormones are small, fat-soluble molecules that are easily absorbed across the skin where they can be stored in the fat tissues.

~ The hormones can reach a saturation level that is sufficiently high so that the fatty tissue diffuses them into the capillaries for uptake by the general blood circulation and transports them to the target tissues.

~ During the transdermal delivery process, the skin does not inactivate these steroid hormones, nor does it produce harmful metabolites from them.


Studies indicate that transdermal hormone products can actually get into the bloodstream. The LEF article below speaks of a Czech study using a gel that does elevate DHEA-S levels:

LEF article on DHEA


In doing a search on highly-bioavailable forms of hormones, I came across another Life Enhancement DHEA product that uses a liposome delivery system:

http://www.life-enha...sp?SID=1&id=570


I assume that you would use a liquid form of DMSO for your homebrew idea, no? Do you dissolve the DHEA in the DMSO? Do you use an encapsulated form of DHEA rather than a tablet form? Micronized? I've heard that Emu oil and possibly other substances has a carrier effect similar to DMSO. Are you aware of carrier agents other than DMSO?

~gr

Edited by systemicanomaly, 31 March 2006 - 11:14 AM.

[systemicanomaly]

I came across a bit more info on "Transdermal Delivery of Steroidal Hormone Precursors" at PersonalHealthFacts.com :

An excellent composition for transporting PREG, DHEA, and progesterone through the skin is an oil/water emulsion that contains components of the fatty tissue of the skin along with suitable permeation enhancers. The fatty tissue skin components include vitamin A, vitamin E, and cholesterol.

Permeation enhancers are substances that are especially compatible with steroid hormones, because they enhance the skin’s permeation of these hormones when they are administered at the same time. (Remember: the skin forms a protective barrier that must be penetrated.) Effective permeation enhancers include alcohol (such as ethanol and isopropanol), polyethylene glycols, fatty acid molecules with 10 to 20 carbon rings and certain, mono-, di-, or triglycerides of fatty acids.

Other possible ways of enhancing transdermal delivery include the use of liposomes and nanospheres. Liposomes are hollow spheres made from phospholipids (such as lecithin) that are up to 300 times smaller than skin cells. These liposomes are filled with agents (in our case PREG, DHEA, and/or progesterone).

Nanospheres are even smaller micro-reservoir particles. These porous polymers have a special structure permitting very high absorption and timed release of the agents into the skin. Because liposomes and nanospheres are timed release media, one must consider the rate of release and lag time of the agent for reaching skin saturation in order to diffuse into the capillaries and enter the blood stream.

By comparison, transdermally delivered steroidal precursors and hormones are up to 80% more bioavailable than equivalent dosages of orally administered steroid hormones...

In practical terms, an oral dose of 25 mg DHEA might be equivalent to 5 mg transdermally. The significance of this is mostly economic - you don’t need to use as much of the hormone when you use the transdermal form...

[FunkOdyssey]

Once an indivual has started supplementing with DHEA (or Pregnenolone) for a while, a number of reputable sources recommend taking a "hormone holiday" every so often. The supplementation of some types of hormones can inhibit the body's own production of those hormones. Some ppl will use a hormone supplement daily for 3 weeks (20-25days) and then gone on a short hormone hiatus for the rest of the month. Others supplement on a weekly cycle: ON for 4-5 days and then OFF 2-3 days.

What reputable sources recommend "hormone holidays?" I don't see how that is applicable to DHEA replacement. DHEA is released in response to ACTH (along with cortisol), but is independent of the negative feedback loop for ACTH, so exogenous DHEA does not inhibit your natural production. Combined with the fact that you're only restoring DHEA to optimal, youthful values -- I haven't read anything that would support the idea of holidays. Pregnenolone also has no negative feedback mechanism to inhibit production in response to external supplementation.

In practical terms, an oral dose of 25 mg DHEA might be equivalent to 5 mg transdermally. The significance of this is mostly economic - you don’t need to use as much of the hormone when you use the transdermal form...

I don't think that is much of an advantage, considering a month's supply of micronized pharmaceutical grade (99.5%) DHEA in caps or tablets will run you about $8-$10 (at 50mg daily)

Edited by funkodyssey, 31 March 2006 - 02:23 PM.

[systemicanomaly]

What reputable sources recommend "hormone holidays?"  I don't see how that is applicable to DHEA replacement....

I don't think that is much of an advantage, considering a month's supply of micronized pharmaceutical grade (99.5%) DHEA in caps or tablets will run you about $8-$10 (at 50mg daily)

The term "hormone holiday" may have been coined by Ray Sahelian M.D., something of an authority on DHEA, Pregnenolone and other anti-aging nutes. Even if he didn't coin the phrase, he has certainly been a staunch advocate of the practice. Dr. Sahelian researched & written quite a bit on both Preg and DHEA. I believe that Will Block, John Morgenthaler, Ward Dean M.D. and other medical professionals have also advocated this practice.

In my own experience the difference between micronized forms and the sublingual + transdermal supplementation was much greater than stated by the souces I quoted. As I mentioned, micronized & other oral forms did not fare well at all in my body even at 50 mg. In a relatively short time, my regimen of sublingual + transdermal at fairly moderate levels had a dramatic effect on my DHEAS levels.

Perhaps the micronized version does a suitable job in your case. It did not for me. It is my understanding that such diffs between individuals is not uncommon.

~gr

[scottl]

may [/i]have been coined by Ray Sahelian M.D., something of an authority on DHEA, Pregnenolone and other anti-aging nutes. ~gr[/quote]


If you check you'll find that Ray Sahelian M.D. recommends homeopathic doses of most supps and IMHO is not a reliable source for dose info (NB opales, etc might find his doses just right).

• Back to top

[systemicanomaly]

If you check you'll find that Ray Sahelian M.D. recommends homeopathic doses of most supps and IMHO is not a reliable source for dose info (NB opales, etc might find his doses just right).

Don't really think that I'd characterize them as homeopathic doses, but he does tend toward the conservative side. I'm sure that he prefers to err on the side of caution since long-term effects of many of these supplements are not really known. We are monkeying wih the natural order of things after all and we don't really know for sure if, in attempting to optimize levels for certain markers, we are perhaps creating some imbalances elsewhere.

This duznt make Dr. Sahelian an unreliable or invalid source, it merely characterizes him as a cautious one. Even tho' his recommended levels may be more conservative than other sources, I believe that those levels are still, nonetheless, therapeutic.

[syr_]

I assume that you would use a liquid form of DMSO for your homebrew idea, no?  Do you dissolve the DHEA in the DMSO?  Do you use an encapsulated form of DHEA rather than a tablet form?  Micronized?  I've heard that Emu oil and possibly other substances has a carrier effect similar to DMSO.  Are you aware of carrier agents other than DMSO?

No I would (will) use pure DHEA powder (at a sufficiently high purity). I dont have a recipe atm, but I think the DHEA should be dissolved in alcohol first and then mixed with the DMSO. DMSO has a gelatin consistency, but its not very thick. You need USP grade DMSO to avoid unwanted chemicals to enter your bloodstream.

Yes, I am aware of other transdermal carriers, but most are a mix of different substances. One that is not, Plojel (sp) has given great results, but its very thick.
DMSO is the better penetration enhancer, and can be used alone, so why bother with other carriers? Only price would justify using other carriers, unless you want an outer skin, more localized delivery, which is NOT the case for hormones.

[syr_]

By comparison, transdermally delivered steroidal precursors and hormones are up to 80% more bioavailable than equivalent dosages of orally administered steroid hormones...

In practical terms, an oral dose of 25 mg DHEA might be equivalent to 5 mg transdermally. The significance of this is mostly economic - you don’t need to use as much of the hormone when you use the transdermal form...

I dont think so, its a generalization that cannot be true by itself. 80% more means nothing. Transdermal delivery of a hormone has between 30% and 50% bioavailability, depending on the carrier(s).
DHEA works orally and has a decent bioavailabiliyy (which i dont know for sure), the problem is for people that absorb it poorly due to stomach or other disorders.

BTW, (oral) DHEA is processed by the liver and the process is complex, I believe that DHEA is a "special" hormone because is a precursor to various hormones, depending on the body necessities. The point -that lacks scientifical explanation, because I am not able to provide it- is that DHEA can extent different results if taken orally or topically, and not only depending on the dosage.
Pubmedding for a few hours would provide some answer maybe, but I remember to have come to the conclusion that for DHEA (as well as most natural hormones) transdermal, if not injection is the way to go.

I strongly believe in HRT using DHEA before anything else (except maybe melatonin, but not as an alternative).

[systemicanomaly]

No I would (will) use pure DHEA powder (at a sufficiently high purity). I dont have a recipe atm, but I think the DHEA should be dissolved in alcohol first and then mixed with the DMSO. DMSO has a gelatin consistency, but its not very thick. You need USP grade DMSO to avoid unwanted chemicals to enter your bloodstream.

Yes, I am aware of other transdermal carriers, but most are a mix of different substances. One that is not, Plojel (sp) has given great results, but its very thick.

DMSO is the better penetration enhancer, and can be used alone, so why bother with other carriers? Only price would justify using other carriers, unless you want an outer skin, more localized delivery, which is NOT the case for hormones.

Domo arigato for the feedback, FunkOdyssey and syr

Edited by systemicanomaly, 02 April 2006 - 09:14 AM.

[livingguy]

My problem with DHEA is that I start to get acne/pimples just in few days of starting it, I take 15mg DHEA by LEF, my blood levels currently are around 250 and I want to bring them upto atleast 450. What could be going wrong? any ideas?

[John Schloendorn]

Note that little or no 7-Keto-DHEA will convert into estrogen and testerone

Hmm, this is a big difference, and one which I happen to be very interested in... So is it no or little? Does anyone have more info on this?
Also, how is 7-keto DHEA made from DHEA? Is that an enzymatic reaction?

[syr_]

Domo arigato for the feedback, FunkOdyssey and syr

Well my resuls wasnt backed up by blood tests. I can tell that i was going out from a very stressful period and that the DHEA (50mg transdermal twice a day) helped mantaining my immune system good, but didnt help putting mass as I hoped. In other words it's HRT, not a substitute for steroids.