26 replies to this topic

[psudoname]

It seems to be generally thought that alcohol is safe in moderation, and I was thinking that it would make sence that other drugs are safe in moderation to. I currently drink very little (ok as I don't really have many inhibitions to lose). The question is what would be moderation for other drugs?

Are any drugs actually safe? What about legal (though bearly) herbal drugs?

Also oddly some of my freinds have started useing laughing gas as a recreational drug.

PS i first put this in bioscience, but I think that was the wrong place.

[Athanasios]

Psychological and cognitive effects of long-term peyote use among Native Americans.

Halpern JH, Sherwood AR, Hudson JI, Yurgelun-Todd D, Pope HG Jr.

Biological Psychiatry Laboratory, Alcohol and Drug Abuse Research Center, Harvard Medical School, McLean Hospital, 115 Mill Street, Belmont, MA 02478, USA. john_halpern@hms.harvard.edu

BACKGROUND: Hallucinogens are widely used, both by drug abusers and by peoples of traditional cultures who ingest these substances for religious or healing purposes. However, the long-term residual psychological and cognitive effects of hallucinogens remain poorly understood. METHODS: We recruited three groups of Navajo Native Americans, age 18-45: 1) 61 Native American Church members who regularly ingested peyote, a hallucinogen-containing cactus; 2) 36 individuals with past alcohol dependence, but currently sober at least 2 months; and 3) 79 individuals reporting minimal use of peyote, alcohol, or other substances. We administered a screening interview, the Rand Mental Health Inventory (RMHI), and ten standard neuropsychological tests of memory and attentional/executive functions. RESULTS: Compared to Navajos with minimal substance use, the peyote group showed no significant deficits on the RMHI or any neuropsychological measures, whereas the former alcoholic group showed significant deficits (p < .05) on every scale of the RMHI and on two neuropsychological measures. Within the peyote group, total lifetime peyote use was not significantly associated with neuropsychological performance. CONCLUSIONS: We found no evidence of psychological or cognitive deficits among Native Americans using peyote regularly in a religious setting. It should be recognized, however, that these findings may not generalize to illicit hallucinogen users.

PMID: 16271313

You need to be a member of a Native American church for peyote use to be legal.

[xanadu]

I think nootropics and other supplements should be used in moderation. There seems to be a mindset that we should take the maximum amount of each. I don't think that's a good strategy. The studies almost invariably test the substance in question in the absence of other drugs that might potentiate it. However, the typical user on this board uses a ton of things.

Drugs are drugs whether it's alcohol, pot, piracetam, ala or what have you.

[PeriPhysis]

(psudoname)
Are any drugs actually safe? What about legal (though bearly) herbal drugs?

Drugs independently of their nature(natural and synthetic is basically the same as the substances are all just chemicals in the end) can be more or less safe, the only way you can tell if one is safer then another is to read everything you can find about it.

[mitkat]

Laughing gas is bad for the nerves and can deplete B12 reserves, if I remember correctly.

I agree with xanadu, drugs is drugs is drugs. It's up to you to do the research and find out what belongs in your body and what does not, what will be harmful, what will be helpful.

[kottke]

Yea man, i was just at a 4 day music festival and people we're sucking nitrogen like they were paint ball guns. Bad decisions these guns made.

[emerson]

The umbrella of the word "drugs" is only slightly less huge than that of "objects which are made on earth". There's far too much variation to count all drugs in the same category. And even when they are very neatly categorized, really, it's still a pretty bad bet to judge their entire range at the same value.

I'm assuming though, that you're talking about recreational drugs. More specifically recreational drugs that have found some measure of legal backlash tossed at their users in the states. I've got a pretty easy answer to that question, "sure". The problem is that "can be used in moderation" is a lot different than "will be used in moderation". The une de vegetal have been using a hallucinogen for quite some time now with overwhelmingly positive change on both an individual and societal level. Various north american tribes have been using peyote for an even longer time than that, with little evidence of an ill effect. But American's get their first good look at the state in the 60s, and the entire culture flips out. Much in the same way that alcohol spread like a destructive plague once it reached native american hands. And of course there's our favourite drug of abuse, caffeine. A drug to be sure, and a pretty potent one at that. Also one that a huge amount of people in the west can't suffer a lack of in their bloodstream. I still haven't decided whether caffeine has been one of the greatest treasures of our culture, or the worst pharmacological curses ever touched by human hands. And the fact that I write this while sipping far too much coffee and longingly gazing at the clock while my computer compiles along makes me even more unsure.

With any mind altering substance, I'd even say any task which provoked different states of consciousness, there's a huge number of factors that have to be taken into consideration. Pressures to use, pressures to not use, peers who will provide strength for walled limits of use first laid down by the users parents.

But, pushing aside my indulgance in a half-awake rant, I have to cast my vote with many others on this thread. It's all about the medical journals and a strong grasp of experimental design. Sadly, in the US recreational drugs are a controversy. And controversy is the wood beneath the flame of crap science. Some of the marijuana studies that have come out of the US in particular are laughingly bad. Terribly put together to the point where a freshman would find himself with a failing grade were he to sneak it in as his own work. Along with that though, is the willingness to be overly critical of the studies which tell you exactly what you had been hoping to hear. I can't promise that you'll actually be able to 'use' any particular recreational drug safely, but I can at least state with some confidence that if you master those two skills you'll have the best tools available to find out.

[xanadu]

Some things are worse than others. Meth and it's variations are about the worst. Coke seems fairly bad in the long run. Just about any stimulant seems to have a bad long term result if overused. Pot seems like one of the most innocuous illegal drugs. Many legal ones are no good for you at all.

[Athanasios]

I like how Robert Anton Wilson approached drug use in "prometheus rising" and "sex, drugs, and majik"

Binaural beats can be considered a drug.

The view of the world that you carry around with you, your perspective, is a drug. Just ask Don Quixote.

[synaesthetic]

Methylinedioxymethylamphetamine in its ability aid psychotherapy and increased occurence of a "breakthrough session" with post traumatic stress disorder victims makes me feel that many users basically reach a breakthough psychotherapy effect during an mdma session without even realizing it. In my experience, people that have done ecstasy at least a few times appear to have resolved alot more issues dealing with anxiety than people who have never tried it. On the flip side, users that abuse it heavily in my experience have much higher anxiety levels than an average person and its probrably due to their damaged synapses.

Moderation is key to keeping balance my friend.

[Ghostrider]

Methylinedioxymethylamphetamine in its ability aid psychotherapy and increased occurence of a "breakthrough session" with post traumatic stress disorder victims makes me feel  that many users basically reach a breakthough psychotherapy effect  during an mdma session without even realizing it. In my experience, people that have done ecstasy at least a few times appear to have resolved alot more issues dealing with anxiety than people who have never tried it. On the flip side, users that abuse it heavily  in my experience have much higher anxiety levels than an average person and its probrably due to their damaged synapses.

Moderation is key to keeping balance my friend.

Moderation is key to keeping balance...but that's not saying much as moderation by definition is balance. In regards to health, I see no positive healthy benefits of recreational drug use. They all, irreversibly mess up your body. Show me one positive (long-term) physical benefit of Methylinedioxymethylamphetamine (spelling?). These recreational drugs all provide short term "entertainment" at the expense of long term health. Is there one long-term positive physical benefit obtained from even cannibus that is not possible to get from a more healthy source? Show me one aspect of how these drugs can allow one's body and mind to function better than in absence. Creativity aside because creativity cannot be quantified in the first place.

[Athanasios]

In the study I posted on peyote, the members who regularly ingested peyote had higher scores on total mental well being.

Also, "It is shown that the sacramental use of peyote by the American Indian Church members is not a deviant hallucinogenic disorder and that in fact it provides a means of achieving and maintaining health, balance, respect, and a sense of community among participants and their social relations."

http://tinyurl.com/fngp2

[sprinkles]

In the study I posted on peyote, the members who regularly ingested peyote had higher scores on total mental well being.

Also, "It is shown that the sacramental use of peyote by the American Indian Church members is not a deviant hallucinogenic disorder and that in fact it provides a means of achieving and maintaining health, balance, respect, and a sense of community among participants and their social relations."

http://tinyurl.com/fngp2

I agree.

[superpooper]

Speaking of just long-term health. Opiates cause almost no problems. Really the only risk is the constipation which you can counter by taking digestive enzymes.

I do remembering read a study that opiates decrease neurogenesis. But if used in moderation, I wonder if it's even a concern?

[superpooper]

Laughing gas is bad for the nerves and can deplete B12 reserves, if I remember correctly.

It's pretty funny. In some some 60's popular science magazine. They had a big article on "Make laughing gas at home".

[emerson]

In the study I posted on peyote, the members who regularly ingested peyote had higher scores on total mental well being.

The same came through for the Santo Daime and their ayahuasca use as well. Working under the assumption that the studies are valid, then it's pretty clear that these two mind altering drugs 'can' be used in moderation and to the betterment of the user. To me, that fact isn't as important as the implication of just how much society and group identification can shape our behaviour and core scenes of self. My assumption is that either plant would show the exact opposite effect if the group taking it had no core beliefs tied to it, or guides outlining what constituted unhealthy use.

Edited by emerson, 22 June 2006 - 12:38 PM.

[ajnast4r]

take into consideration that in native culture... native or south american indians, tribal africans, etc etc.... hallucinogenic drugs are almost NEVER used recreationally. its always for spiritual or healing purposes, and always monitored by a shaman with generations of passed down knowledge about their proper use.


using drugs reacreationally, and not monitored by a professional is a BAD idea... improper use of hallucinogens can create SERIOUS mental problems.


interesting fact: ayahuasca drastically improves seratonin receptor sensativity when used properly

[Athanasios]

Another place to look at the affect of hallucinogens is timothy leary's prison work.

Haha, I mean when HE wasn't the one in prison

Edited by cnorwood19, 22 June 2006 - 04:48 PM.

[sprinkles]

Not only that: LSD and childhood schizophrenia, LSD and psychiatry, LSD and drug dependency(alcohol). Some of the case studies are remarkable.

http://www.maps.org/...3/07318fis.html

Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin
Gary Fisher, Ph.D.

Now that the FDA has permitted research with LSD and psilocybin to resume, we feel it is important to share examples of a remarkable experiment, the results of which were not sufficiently taken into account because this line of research was prematurely halted in the mid-sixties due to political considerations. Childhood schizophrenia is still a difficult problem to treat and causes much suffering. It is a terrible shame that research done 35 years ago is still the last word on the use of psychedelics to treat these conditions. - Ed.

[Athanasios]

improper use of hallucinogens can create SERIOUS mental problems.

Yes, set and setting are of utmost importance.

[mitkat]

Laughing gas is bad for the nerves and can deplete B12 reserves, if I remember correctly.

It's pretty funny. In some some 60's popular science magazine. They had a big article on "Make laughing gas at home".

It IS funny stuff Some doctors get really hooked on it though, with that big, shiny tank sitting around all day...

take into consideration that in native culture... native or south american indians, tribal africans, etc etc.... hallucinogenic drugs are almost NEVER used recreationally. its always for spiritual or healing purposes, and always monitored by a shaman with generations of passed down knowledge about their proper use.


using drugs reacreationally, and not monitored by a professional is a BAD idea... improper use of hallucinogens can create SERIOUS mental problems.


interesting fact: ayahuasca drastically improves seratonin receptor sensativity when used properly

This is absolutely true. You'd never find native Brazillian kids back in the day taking ayahuasca on a friday night because they were bored. It's a totally different context than what we would place it in.

[psudoname]

Ahh, people replied and I forgot about this thread. Anyway thanks for the replies. The thing about hallocinogens is interesting, and I have always be curious but never experimented.

There is a large lack of native americans where I live (I'm not in america) but of course there are pleanty of sources of legal or illegal hallicinogens. The question is how to use them safely. I know that they should only be used in a safe enviroment, so not at music festivals for instance. In the absence of a shaman I suppose the best thing would be to experiment with people who have used drugs before, and to do lots of reaserch on the net.

This:

interesting fact: ayahuasca drastically improves seratonin receptor sensativity when used properly

Is about as astonishing as the claim that weed can stimulate growth in the hippocampus. If it's true then that's realy amusing.

Interesting, that so many drugs are actually quite safe if done properly, and bing drinking is so bad. Yet what's legal? Ahh well, that's for the politics section I suppose...

[emerson]

interesting fact: ayahuasca drastically improves seratonin receptor sensativity when used properly

I can dig up the studies when I get home if nobody else has. I believe there's two which have looked into this, one which was part of a study I'm semi-familiar with, and another which I chanced on while doing random database searches in a library. I've been meaning to check out the later again for a more relaxed reading.

Is about as astonishing as the claim that weed can stimulate growth in the hippocampus. If it's true then that's realy amusing.

I've only come across this one from popular writeups. But one thing to keep in mind is that it was a single chemical among a huge collection contained within the plant which they suggested did so. There's a hell of a lot of drugs contained in that tiny plant.

[superpooper]

No one has any comments about opiates in moderation?

[psudoname]

Ok, yep opiates in moderation does sound interesting, though it's not somthing i'm particually interested in doing. Also, for one thing where would you get hold of opiates without the dangerous impurities and for another it's addictive, so not easy to do in moderation.

[purerealm]

opiates only improve the quality of your life in the short run

[PeriPhysis]

Opiates is not a very good thing in my opinion, most of them are highly addictive and there is never easy to get out of it once you're in.
Opium used within large intervals of time and in small quantities may be the less dangerous but not at all safe thing in here thougth.
But you might want to stay away from them unless you really want to try and know what you're doing... but dont use them frequently a few days on heroin can lead to addiction in some people...
As for other drugs crack is not worth the risk of addiction and is very bad for your health... cocaine is too a risk...

The less dangerous of all may be hallucinogens(salvia, dmt, lsd...) and pot...