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Consumer Labs publishes Milk Thistle results


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#1 palindromic

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 04:32 PM


Consumer Labs published milk thistle results and the results are discouraging to say the least. Of the 10 different brands tested ONLY 1 brand passed, it was Jarrow Formulas Milk Thistle (150 mg extract). I will hold off on listing which brands failed (don't want to violate TOS of imminst) but PM with your favorite brand and I will let you know if it did fail. My current brand, LEF, unfortunately was not tested. Reasons for failure varied by brand including not having the amount of specified substance to labeling issues.

#2 niner

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 05:53 PM

Consumer Labs published milk thistle results and the results are discouraging to say the least. Of the 10 different brands tested ONLY 1 brand passed, it was Jarrow Formulas Milk Thistle (150 mg extract). I will hold off on listing which brands failed (don't want to violate TOS of imminst) but PM with your favorite brand and I will let you know if it did fail. My current brand, LEF, unfortunately was not tested. Reasons for failure varied by brand including not having the amount of specified substance to labeling issues.

Did any of them fail due to contamination problems?

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#3 palindromic

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 06:05 PM

None of the tested brands failed because of contamination issues

#4 j03

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 11:44 PM

I got this Milk Thistle/Dandelion Tincture one from "Naturally Nova Scotia"

http://public.natura...p?productid=100

#5 Lufega

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 01:12 AM

I'm using the LEF brand and my liver enzymes tell me everything I need to know :-D

#6 Declmem

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 05:26 AM

I use the Nature's Way brand. Sadly, it was not tested :(

#7 niner

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 05:35 AM

I use the Nature's Way brand. Sadly, it was not tested :(

It's possible that it was tested and passed, but Nature's Way wasn't willing to pay the ransom that CL wants to list the product. That's why RevGenetics doesn't show up on their resveratrol tests. There are probably other companies that passed and didn't want to pay too, but you can't know for sure. I would expect that CL would test all the major brands, then only list them for free if they fail. So if you don't see yours there, it's probably a good sign.

That said, I'm not sure there is any evidence that Milk Thistle does anything for reasonably healthy people, including people with liver enzymes that are a little high.

#8 LIB

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 06:53 AM

Good news for me, that's the kind I've been taking all along. Jarrow is usually awesome.

#9 ensun

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 08:35 AM

That said, I'm not sure there is any evidence that Milk Thistle does anything for reasonably healthy people, including people with liver enzymes that are a little high.


Why would you say that? There are plenty of studies showing organ protective properties of milk thistle. I think that's what most people here are after.

#10 maxwatt

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 02:26 PM

I use the Nature's Way brand. Sadly, it was not tested :(

It's possible that it was tested and passed, but Nature's Way wasn't willing to pay the ransom that CL wants to list the product. That's why RevGenetics doesn't show up on their resveratrol tests. There are probably other companies that passed and didn't want to pay too, but you can't know for sure. I would expect that CL would test all the major brands, then only list them for free if they fail. So if you don't see yours there, it's probably a good sign.

That said, I'm not sure there is any evidence that Milk Thistle does anything for reasonably healthy people, including people with liver enzymes that are a little high.

Silymarin in milk thistle activates Sirt1, though not so strongly as resveratrol. Both are P53 deacetlyases and could be expected to support liver function.

J Asian Nat Prod Res. 2007 Apr-Aug;9(3-5):245-52.
Activation of the SIRT1 pathway and modulation of the cell cycle were involved in silymarin's protection against UV-induced A375-S2 cell apoptosis.
Li LH, Wu LJ, Tashiro SI, Onodera S, Uchiumi F, Ikejima T.

China-Japan Research Institute of Medical and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Shenyang Pharmaceutical University, Shenyang, China.
Silymarin, derived from the milk thistle plant, Silybum marianum, has been traditionally used in the treatment of liver disease. Our previous study demonstrated that silymarin has an anti-apoptotic effect against UV irradiation. In this study, SIRT1, a human deacetylase that was reported to promote cell survival, was activated by silymarin (5 x 10(- 4) mol/L) in UV-irradiated human malignant melanoma, A375-S2 cells, followed by down-regulated expression of Bax and decreased release of cytochrome c. Cleavage of procaspase-3 and digestion of its substrates, the inhibitor of caspase-activated DNase (ICAD) and poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP), were also reduced. Consistent with its protective effect on UV-induced apoptosis, silymarin (5 x 10(- 4) mol/L) also increased G(2)/M phase arrest, possibly providing a prolonged time for efficient DNA repair. Consequently, that silymarin protected A375-S2 cell against UV-induced apoptosis was partially through SIRT1 pathway and modulation of the cell cycle distribution.

PMID: 17566917

Yao Xue Xue Bao. 2007 Mar;42(3):263-8.
[Protective effect of silibinin against isoproterenol-induced injury to cardiac myocytes and its mechanism]
[Article in Chinese]

Zhou B, Wu LJ, Tashiro S, Onodera S, Uchiumi F, Ikejima T.

China-Japan Research Institute of Medical and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Shenyang Pharmaceutical University, Shenyang 110016, China.
Silibinin is a polyphenolic flavanoid derived from fruits and seeds of milk thistle (Silybum marianum). To investigate the effect and mechanism of silibinin on beta-isoproterenol-induced rat neonatal cardiac myocytes injury, the viability, the activation of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) and the content of maleic dialdehyde (MDA) were chosen for measuring the degree of cardiac myocytes injury. Superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity, mitochondrial membrane potential (deltapsi) detected by flow cytometric analysis, and Western blotting analysis were applied to determine the related proteins. Silibinin protected isoproterenol-treated rat cardiac myocytes from death and significantly decreased LDH release and MDA production. Silibinin increased superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity, and increased mitochondrial membrane potential (deltapsi). Furthermore, the release of pro-apoptotic cytochrome c from mitochondria was reduced by silibinin. Silibinin increased the expression of anti-apoptotic Bcl-2 family protein Bcl-2, and up-regulation of SIRT1 inhibited the translocation of Bax from cytoplasm to mitochondria, which caused mitochondrial dysfunction and cell injury. Silibinin protects cardiac myocytes against isoproterenol-induced injury through resuming mitochondrial function and regulating the expression of SIRT1 and Bcl-2 family members.

PMID: 17520824



#11 pycnogenol

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 04:13 PM

It's possible that it was tested and passed, but Nature's Way wasn't willing to pay the ransom that CL wants to list the product.


Hi niner,

How much ransom moolah are are talkin' about for these companies to pony up to CL anyway?

#12 niner

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 06:30 PM

It's possible that it was tested and passed, but Nature's Way wasn't willing to pay the ransom that CL wants to list the product.

How much ransom moolah are are talkin' about for these companies to pony up to CL anyway?

As I recall, Anthony mentioned something like $4000. It might depend on the size of the company, or the sales of the product, or something like that...

#13 niner

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 06:39 PM

That said, I'm not sure there is any evidence that Milk Thistle does anything for reasonably healthy people, including people with liver enzymes that are a little high.

Why would you say that? There are plenty of studies showing organ protective properties of milk thistle. I think that's what most people here are after.

This is what Consumer Labs had to say about Milk Thistle in their report on it:

Diseases of the Liver
Silymarin is thought to act as a liver-protectant. However, evidence of benefit in liver disease has been mixed. One preliminary study of a specific silybinin preparation improved liver function in people with chronic active hepatitis. However, most studies in patients with hepatitis B or C have generally not shown an improvement in mortality or liver function using milk thistle or preparations of milk thistle. Similarly, in alcoholic liver disease, some preliminary clinical studies suggested that milk thistle might improve liver function and mortality. However, an analysis of several studies did not show a significant effect. Preliminary evidence suggests that milk thistle extract standardized to 70% - 80% silymarin may protect the liver against damage from certain toxins, including drugs such as acetaminophen and phenytoin (Dilantin).

If it's anti-apoptotic, it might be helpful in some situations, but where is the evidence that it does anything useful for people with relatively normal livers? It kind of seems like one of those drugs that everyone says works because everyone says it works.

#14 ensun

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:58 AM

Diseases of the Liver
Silymarin is thought to act as a liver-protectant. However, evidence of benefit in liver disease has been mixed. One preliminary study of a specific silybinin preparation improved liver function in people with chronic active hepatitis. However, most studies in patients with hepatitis B or C have generally not shown an improvement in mortality or liver function using milk thistle or preparations of milk thistle. Similarly, in alcoholic liver disease, some preliminary clinical studies suggested that milk thistle might improve liver function and mortality. However, an analysis of several studies did not show a significant effect. Preliminary evidence suggests that milk thistle extract standardized to 70% - 80% silymarin may protect the liver against damage from certain toxins, including drugs such as acetaminophen and phenytoin (Dilantin).


This is hardly scientific. It states "some preliminary clinical studies suggest..." and "However, an analysis of several studies..." This wording makes it sound as if most studies are negative while few are positive. I have gone through several dozen studies on pubmed and elsewhere for silymarin, milk thistle, silibin, etc. Most studies are positive. Here are a few.. there are literally hundreds more.

Hepatoprotective effects of misoprostol and silymarin on carbon tetrachloride-induced hepatic damage in rats.
Salam OM, Sleem AA, Omara EA, Hassan NS.
Department of Pharmacology, National Research Centre, Dokki, Cairo, Egypt. omasalam@hotmail.com
The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of misoprostol, silymarin or the co-administration of misoprostol + silymarin on the carbon tetrachloride (CCl(4))-induced hepatic injury in rats. Misoprostol (10, 100, 1000 microg/kg), silymarin (25 mg/kg) or misoprostol (100 microg/kg) + silymarin (25 mg/kg) was given once daily orally simultaneously with CCl(4) and for 15 days thereafter. The results showed that misoprostol (10, 100 or 1000 microg/kg) conferred significant protection against the hepatotoxic actions of CCl(4) in rats, reducing serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) levels by 24.7%, 42.6% and 49.4%, respectively compared with controls. Misoprostol, given at 100 or 1000 microg/kg, decreased aspartate aminotransferase (AST) by 28 and 43.6% and alkaline phosphatase (ALP) by 19.3% and 53.4% respectively. Meanwhile, silymarin reduced ALT, AST and ALP levels by 62.7%, 66.1% and 65.1% respectively. The co-administration of misoprostol (100 microg/kg) and silymarin (25 mg/kg) resulted in 61.4%, 66.1% and 57.5% reduction in ALT, AST and ALP levels respectively. Histopathological alterations and depletion of hepatocyte glycogen and DNA content by CCl(4) were markedly reduced after treatment with misoprostol, silymarin or misoprostol + silymarin. Image analysis of liver specimens revealed a marked reduction in liver necrosis; area of damage: 32.4%, 24% and 10.2% after misoprostol (10, 100 or 1000 microg/kg), 7.2% after silymarin and 10.9% after treatment with misoprostol 100 microg/kg + silymarin, compared with CCl(4) control group (46.7%). These results indicate that treatment with misoprostol protects against hepatocellular necrosis induced by CCl(4). This study suggests a potential therapeutic use for misoprostol in liver injury.


[Silymarin in the treatment of chronic liver diseases: past and future]
[Article in Hungarian]
Fehér J, Lengyel G.
Semmelweis Egyetem, Altalános Orvostudományi Kar II. Belgyógyászati Klinika Budapest Szentkirályi u. 46. 1088. feher@bel2.sote.hu
In the treatment of chronic liver diseases adequate therapy can be chosen only in the knowledge of pathogenetic processes. In the liver diseases caused by oxidative stress (alcoholic and non-alcoholic fatty liver and steatohepatitis, drug and compound induced liver toxicity) the antioxidant drugs, like silymarin, in chronic hepatitis caused by hepatitis B and hepatitis C virus, combined peginterferon and nucleosid treatments are the primary therapy modalities to be selected. The main effects of silymarin are the membrane stabilising and antioxidant effects, it is able to help the liver cell regeneration, it can decrease the inflammatory reaction and inhibit the fibrogenesis in the liver. These results have been established by experimental and clinical trials. According to open studies, the long administration of silymarin significantly increased the survival time of patients with alcohol-induced liver cirrhosis. Recently it was demonstrated that high-dosage silibinin infusion treatment could significantly decrease the number of hepatitis C viruses after four-week application. On the basis of the results with the methods of molecular biology, silymarin is able to decrease significantly tumor cell proliferation, angiogenesis as well as insulin resistance. These results support the administration of silymarin preparations in the therapy of chronic liver diseases, especially in alcoholic and non-alcoholic steatohepatitis in current clinical practice, and as it can be awaited, also in the future. In some neoplastic diseases they could also be administered as adjuvant therapy.


An updated systematic review with meta-analysis for the clinical evidence of silymarin.
Saller R, Brignoli R, Melzer J, Meier R.
Institute of Complementary Medicine, Department of Internal Medicine, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland. reinhard.saller@usz.ch
BACKGROUND: The potential benefit of silymarin (special extract from the fruits of Silybum marianum) in the treatment of liver diseases remains a controversial issue. METHODS: For this systematic review electronic databases identified 65 papers for the search terms silymarin, silibinin, silicristin or milk thistle and clinical trial. Only 19 complied with the criteria'double-' or 'single-blind'. These publications were analysed from a clinical point of view and meta-analytic calculations were performed. RESULTS: The clinical evidence ofa therapeutic effect of silymarin in toxic liver diseases is scarce. There is no evidence of a favourable influence on the evolution of viral hepatitis, particularly hepatitis C. In alcoholic liver disease, comparing with placebo, aspartate aminotransferase was reduced in the silymarin-treated groups (p = 0.01) while alkaline phosphatase was not. In liver cirrhosis, mostly alcoholic, total mortality was 16.1% with silymarin vs. 20.5% with placebo (n.s.); liver-related mortality was 10.0% with silymarin vs. 17.3% with placebo(p = 0.01). CONCLUSIONS: Based on the available clinical evidence it can be concluded - concerning possible risks /probable benefits - that it is reasonable to employ silymarin as a supportive element in the therapy of Amanita phalloides poisoning but also (alcoholic and grade Child 'A') liver cirrhosis. A consistent research programme, consolidating existing evidence and exploring new potential uses,would be very welcome.


There are too many liver studies, and I don't have the time to sort through them all over again. Knock yourself out - http://www.ncbi.nlm....;=related_query

Neuro Protective
In an experimental animal model designed to induce nerve damage from chemical exposure that causes Alzheimer’s-like brain tangles and plaque to form, silymarin treatment following injection of the chemical dramatically reduced neurotoxicity. Memory was maintained, free radical damage was prevented (lowering of iNOS), and brain inflammation was curtailed (lowering of TNFa). The researchers concluded that silymarin “attenuates memory impairment through amelioration of oxidative stress and inflammatory response induced by Abeta [the drug] and may be a potential candidate for an Alzheimer’s Disease medication.”

Kidneys
In another animal experiment mice were exposed to a powerful toxin (ferric nitrilotriacetate) that causes kidney damage and kidney cancer. The drug rapidly depletes antioxidants and detoxification function, in turn leading to a highly inflammatory state. It was found that silymarin protected the kidneys against this toxin by turning down the underlying inflammatory gene signal NF-kappaB. It also prevented the development of kidney cancer. The scientists summarized their findings, “from these results, it could be concluded that silymarin markedly protects against chemically induced renal cancer and acts plausibly by virtue of its antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, and antiproliferative activities.”

Cholesterol
A report in the 1998 medical journal Physiological Research, the silymarin in milk thistle is believed to protect the body from high cholesterol and atherosclerosis. The reason for this is the benefit that silymarin has on the liver, which metabolizes cholesterol and fats.

Cancer
Milk thistle has been shown to exhibit anti-cancer properties. A study in the January 2005 edition of the International Journal of Oncology states that silymarin holds promise in protecting against skin cancer caused by the sun, as well as cancer in other parts of the body caused by the chemical mutation of cells. According to the UMMC, the silymarin, as well as other ingredients in milk thistle, keep the cancer cells from dividing and multiplying. This also reduces the blood supply to tumors that are growing.

The potential of milk thistle (Silybum marianum L.), an Israeli native, as a source of edible sprouts rich in antioxidants.
Vaknin Y, Hadas R, Schafferman D, Murkhovsky L, Bashan N.
Department of Agronomy and Natural Resources, Institute of Plant Sciences, Agricultural Research Organization, Volcani Center, Bet Dagan, Israel. yiftachv@volcani.agri.gov.il
The potential of wild plants in Israel as sources of edible sprouts has not been investigated until now. Milk thistle (Silybum marianum L.) is native to the Mediterranean basin and is now widespread throughout the world; its young fleshy stems are traditionally eaten by the local Arab sector in Israel, and its sprouts are rich in antioxidants and have been used as a traditional medicine for diseases of the liver and biliary tract. The active extract of milk thistle, silymarin, is a mixture of flavonolignans and is a strong antioxidant that has been proved to promote liver cell regeneration, to reduce blood cholesterol and to help prevent cancer. The present objective was to investigate the potential of milk thistle as a source of edible sprouts rich in antioxidants. We found that seed germination within 3-4 days was high (96%, except for striated seeds). Exposure to light significantly reduced sprout growth and significantly increased the polyphenol content and antioxidative capacity. The polyphenol content was 30% higher in seeds originating from purple inflorescences than in those from white ones. We thus found milk thistle to be a good candidate source of healthy edible sprouts.


where is the evidence that it does anything useful for people with relatively normal livers?


This is a loaded question. I said most people find the compound useful because of its protective properties. Silymarin has been prescribed mass-scale for liver treatment in European hospitals for a long time. The liver, brain, kidneys and other organs are exposed to toxins (ie: pesticides) all the time, and thus many people find silymarin to be useful. In addition, it activates SIRT1.

I happen to lean toward this Dr.'s opinion as well:

"Milk thistle strengthens your liver and reduces the damage from environmental irritants like pesticides," says Jennifer Brett, N.D., a naturopathic doctor at the Wilton Naturopathic Center in Stratford, Connecticut.



#15 renwosing

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:59 PM

NAC is still a better choice.

#16 maxwatt

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 06:31 PM

NAC is still a better choice.

Thank you for pointing that out. Like silymarin from milk thistle, NAC has been used as an antidote to amanita mushroom poisoning. However, I thnk Legalon, the formulated extract from milk thistle, is still preferred for that application. I don't know why, perhaps it is inertia on the part of doctors, or perhaps it does not work as well?

Arzneimittelforschung. 1999 Dec;49(12):1044-7.
Use of acetylcysteine as the life-saving antidote in Amanita phalloides (death cap) poisoning. Case report on 11 patients.
Montanini S, Sinardi D, Praticò C, Sinardi AU, Trimarchi G.

Anaesthetics and Intensive Care Department, University Hospital of Messina, Italy.
alpha-Amanitin is an amatoxin known to produce deleterious effects on the liver and the kidneys, when circulating in the blood. It is produced by a particular kind of mushroom called amanita phalloides. Therapeutic options employed to treat mushroom intoxication, such as haemodiaperfusion on activated charcoal, high dosages of penicillin G, oral charcoal, etc., very often failed to act properly and liver transplantation (when a graft is available) appeared to be the only solution. In recent years, as suggest by some authors, it has been postulated that the oxidant effects of alpha-amanitin could be counteracted by the use of antioxidants such as silibinin. High dosages of N-acetyl-cysteine (CAS 616-91-1, NAC), already used as antioxidant in paracetamol poisoning, were successfully used in our Intensive Care Unit (ICU) in the treatment of Amanita phalloides poisoning. In the last two years, 11 patients (mean age of 5-72 = 38.5) were treated for Amanita phalloides poisoning of various degrees, with a protocol (haemodiaperfusion on activated charcoal, high dosages of penicillin G, etc.) further comprehending NAC (fluimucil). All the patients recovered successfully but one (bearing precedent liver disease) needed liver transplantation. Daily monitoring of liver enzymes, creatinine, coagulation, LDH, blood and urinary alpha-amanitin were used to screen the progresses of the patients.

PMID: 10635453


NAC also shares some of resveratrol's activity vis-a-vis P53, perhaps a different mechanism. It is not known to activate Sirt1, but like resveratrol it should help with osteoarthritis. One might expect milk thistle/silymarin to also help with arthritis. There are few papers in pubmed on silymarin and arthritis, but there is one that indicates it does have positive effects but by inhibition of 5-lipoxygenase, a different mechanism to NAC and resveratrol, which appeart to work through nf-KappaB. I think milk thistle may be a useful addition if one is taking resevratrol for that purpose.

J Orthop Res. 2009 Sep 1. [Epub ahead of print]
N-acetylcysteine prevents nitric oxide-induced chondrocyte apoptosis and cartilage degeneration in an experimental model of osteoarthritis.
Nakagawa S, Arai Y, Mazda O, Kishida T, Takahashi KA, Sakao K, Saito M, Honjo K, Imanishi J, Kubo T.

Department of Orthopaedics, Graduate School of Medical Science, Kyoto Prefectural University of Medicine, Kawaramachi-Hirokoji, Kamigyo-ku, Kyoto 602-8566, Japan.
We investigated whether N-acetylcysteine (NAC), a precursor of glutathione, could protect rabbit articular chondrocytes against nitric oxide (NO)-induced apoptosis and could prevent cartilage destruction in an experimental model of osteoarthritis (OA) in rats. Isolated chondrocytes were treated with various concentrations of NAC (0-2 mM). Apoptosis was induced by 0.75 mM sodium nitroprusside (SNP) dehydrate, which produces NO. Cell viability was assessed by MTT assay, while apoptosis was evaluated by Hoechst 33342 and TUNEL staining. Intracellular reactive oxygen species (ROS) and glutathione levels were measured, and expression of p53 and caspase-3 were determined by Western blotting. To determine whether intraarticular injection of NAC prevents cartilage destruction in vivo, cartilage samples of an OA model were subjected to H&E, Safranin O, and TUNEL staining. NAC prevented NO-induced apoptosis, ROS overproduction, p53 up-regulation, and caspase-3 activation. The protective effects of NAC were significantly blocked by buthionine sulfoximine, a glutathione synthetase inhibitor, indicating that the apoptosis-preventing activity of NAC was mediated by glutathione. Using a rat model of experimentally induced OA, we found that NAC also significantly prevented cartilage destruction and chondrocyte apoptosis in vivo. These results indicate that NAC inhibits NO-induced apoptosis of chondrocytes through glutathione in vitro, and inhibits chondrocyte apoptosis and articular cartilage degeneration in vivo. © 2009 Orthopaedic Research Society. Published by Wiley Periodicals, Inc. J Orthop Res.

PMID: 19725096

Phytomedicine. 2000 Mar;7(1):21-4.
Anti-inflammatory and anti-arthritic activities of silymarin acting through inhibition of 5-lipoxygenase.
Gupta OP, Sing S, Bani S, Sharma N, Malhotra S, Gupta BD, Banerjee SK, Handa SS.

Regional Research Laboratory (CSIR) Jammu Tawi, India.
Silymarin, a mixture of flavonolignans, comprised mainly of three isomers, silybin, silydianin and silychristin isolated from the fruits of Silybum marianum, is currently in therapeutic use as a hepatoprotective agent. Silymarin on evaluation exhibited significant antiinflammatory and antiarthritic activities in the papaya latex induced model of inflammation and mycobacterial adjuvant induced arthritis in rats. Results of the study indicate its action through inhibition of 5-lipoxygenase for antiinflammatory and antiarthritic activities.

PMID: 10782486



#17 niner

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 07:02 PM

where is the evidence that it does anything useful for people with relatively normal livers?

This is a loaded question. I said most people find the compound useful because of its protective properties. Silymarin has been prescribed mass-scale for liver treatment in European hospitals for a long time. The liver, brain, kidneys and other organs are exposed to toxins (ie: pesticides) all the time, and thus many people find silymarin to be useful. In addition, it activates SIRT1.

I happen to lean toward this Dr.'s opinion as well:

"Milk thistle strengthens your liver and reduces the damage from environmental irritants like pesticides," says Jennifer Brett, N.D., a naturopathic doctor at the Wilton Naturopathic Center in Stratford, Connecticut.

It's not a loaded question, it's the whole point. The paragraph from Consumer Labs that I quoted does point out the possible value of Milk Thistle in alcoholic liver disease. As for healthy people, I continue to ask "where is the evidence that it does something useful?" Healthy people aren't drinking carbon tetrachloride, and unless you are a pesticide applier on a commercial farm and not using proper protective gear, you aren't being exposed to pesticides at a level that will cause cirrhosis. This Naturopath's opinion is just poorly informed opinion. It's not evidence. All the other cites involve various poisonings or disease states, none of which correspond to healthy people. Several other cites simply make claims without backing them up. The one meta-analysis of good human studies finds a little benefit in a couple disease states. It still looks like most people think Milk Thistle is useful to healthy people because most people think it's useful.

#18 ensun

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 07:40 PM

Do you take tylenol, ingest heavy metals or harmful bacteria? I hardly cited all the evidence for milk thistle, but milk thistle protects the liver against these as well. The cholesterol benefit was in healthy rats. The quote that makes claims without backing them up I added simply to show that milk thistle is a good source for edible sprouts, meaning that humans and human ancestors have probably eaten it for a long time. Given the fact that it's dirt cheap, why the hell not?

#19 maxwatt

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 07:57 PM

Do you take tylenol, ingest heavy metals or harmful bacteria? I hardly cited all the evidence for milk thistle, but milk thistle protects the liver against these as well. The cholesterol benefit was in healthy rats. The quote that makes claims without backing them up I added simply to show that milk thistle is a good source for edible sprouts, meaning that humans and human ancestors have probably eaten it for a long time. Given the fact that it's dirt cheap, why the hell not?


And why in the first place? It's true that no evidence of benefit in healthy people does not mean there is none, but there is no evidence of harm doesn't mean there is none. It might make your brain shrink over time, like excessive soy (and other tyrosine kinase inhibitors) are thought to do. The risks are unknown, they are not negligible. That, I think, is niner's point. I don't care if you take milk thistle, but I think you should have a good reason for taking it, and some way to measure if it's having the desired effect. Otherwise you are at best wasting money, and you are just possibly impairing your future health for no good reason beyond wishful thinking.

#20 ensun

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 08:13 PM

Sure it is, but can't the same be said for resveratrol, acetyl-l-carnitine, l-carnosine, pyridoxamine, curcumin (supplemented), melatonin, et. al? We don't have any evidence of long-term use in humans of these either. We're all taking risks here.

#21 ensun

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 08:37 PM

But I understand what niner is saying now. Thank you.

#22 pycnogenol

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 11:39 PM

I don't care if you take milk thistle, but I think you should have a good reason for taking it, and some way to measure if it's having the desired effect.


A blood test revealed I had elevated liver enzymes earlier this year and immediately I started taking milk thistle. 4 months later and I get another blood test
(re-check) to see if the milk thistle helped or not and sure enough my liver enzymes dropped down to the normal range. I didn't take any other herbs during
that time either.

#23 niner

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 01:41 AM

I had a blood test a few months ago that showed elevated enzymes. I took no herbs whatsoever, and got another blood test a couple weeks later. My enzymes were normal. I had been on vacation and was drinking more than usual before the first test; that's the only thing that I can blame it on.

#24 neogenic

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 02:24 AM

Was NOW foods silymarin in this testing?

#25 sentrysnipe

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 02:54 AM

Thanks, palindrome. Now, how do I condemn those brands and let everyone else know they're being duped?
Is that report OK to release outside CL and imminst?`

#26 hyper_ventriloquism

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 04:43 AM

Was NOW foods silymarin in this testing?


NOW was not included in the published results.

#27 niner

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 05:57 AM

Was NOW foods silymarin in this testing?

NOW was not included in the published results.

That means it was either not tested or NOW didn't want to pay the ransom to be listed as passing the test. Since it's a major brand, it was probably tested, but we don't know for sure. Email to CL and NOW might turn something up, though CL probably has a 'no comment' policy if they don't get their money.

#28 sentrysnipe

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 07:32 AM

NOW and Jarrow usually have the same Chinese raw material.

#29 maxwatt

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 12:35 PM

NOW and Jarrow usually have the same Chinese raw material.

Everyone has some Chinese raw material.

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#30 palindromic

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 03:50 PM

Thanks, palindrome. Now, how do I condemn those brands and let everyone else know they're being duped?
Is that report OK to release outside CL and imminst?`


Hey Sentry,

Do what you want with the information although posting it completely on imminst may run afoul of the terms of service. Most of the failures were improper labeling or not as much substance as claimed on the label. If there had been contaminants then I think it would be critical to release the names of those brands.

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