[mattblack UK]

I've just joined the forum although I have been reading it very often recently. I'm hoping for some advice and I apologise in advance if I ramble on a bit (I often do).

In my early twenties I went through a phase of drug taking / experimenting. This was mainly with MDMA (Ecstacy) at the weekends. I started with 1 but by the second year I was taking 3 each time I went out. Now I don't know whether you would class this as heavy usage or recreational usage but I have seen said on here that it shouldn't really have caused too much damage. I tend to disagree.

Ever since those two years, I have felt the effects of it. I have suffered from a virtually zero attention span, a very bad working memory ( I forget what I'm thinking as I'm thinking it!). I have also lost the edge off my emotions. I would describe myself as care-free or nonchalant. Just plodding along. Things that should make me angry don't. Things that should make me happy don't. I am though content most of the time. I don't feel joy. I smile a bit but never laugh. I never get angry, just a little irritable sometimes. I am just in a constant 'don't give a crap' attitude, i think so much and so fast but my brain can't process any of it, I get fantastic ideas but can't seem to drive myself to achieve any of them, I forget things I did 5 minutes ago. I can't listen to anyone for more than 30 seconds before I glaze over and start daydreaming. Strangely I have no problem at all sleeping and NEVER wake in the night. I do find it very very hard getting up in the morning though and have 5 alarm clocks!

Thing is, since then I have found out some things. My brother has always had Aspergers Syndrome. It was diagnosed early, and this is an hereditary condition. I was diagnosed with it when I was 30 and we think it went unnoticed because I did well at school whereas my brother had learning difficulties. When I look back now at school life I'm pretty certain that I had ADD but not with the physical hyperactivity, more in the withdrawn day dreamy sense. And here in the UK, if you aint got physical hyperactivity you aint got ADD. We're well behind the Americans in research into this area. Anyway, to try and get to the point, since my MDMA dabbling days, my symptoms of ADD have become far far worse and I'm wondering if its because my brain wasn't quite right in the first place and so the messing about has had a much greater impact.

What I have always suspected is since those episodes, my brain has over produced serotonin to the point where it no longer has the desired effect, but at the detriment of my other neurotransmitters such as dopamine and acetylchorine. If I look at the lists of behaviours that serotinin affects, I know I dont have a problem or a lack of it. If I look at the same list but for dopamine, it reads like a list of behaviours that I want but dont have. Same goes for Acetylcholine. I recently did the Braverman test - and yes I know that a lot of you think its BS, but I was curious anyway. This is what I scored:

Dominance
-------------
Dopamine 28
Acetylcholine 20
GABA 24
Serotonin 41 !

Deficiency
------------
Dopamine 17
Acetylcholine 20
GABA 13
Serotonin 6

I remember going to my doctors about 3 years ago complaining of my ADD and how it was holding me back in my attempts to study and work. I told him that I dont suspect its anything to do with serotonin. I walked out with a prescription for some Prozac!!

I have tried nutrition supplements, fish oil, different diets, exersise, doing puzzles, reading a lot, and anything else that was suggested to me. None of it has made a slightest bit of difference. But I never give up and I have the belief and the determination that I can do something about this. So hear I am reading through these forums and other places on the net about Nootropics.

So basically this is what I would lik to do. Balance out those neurotransmirtters including a boost with acetylcholine (I almost feel like I'm coming down with alzeimers at times!). I would also like to boost dopamine a little. Tyrosine does not work for me by the way, I have tried up to 2g a day and I just get mild headaches and nothing more. Do whatever I can to repair the brain, and optimise how its all functioning.

My thoughts at the moment are:
Piracetam with a choline source - probably DMAE
Denepryl - but only a small dosage as recommended

I also would liek to try modafinil but its way above what I can afford.
I would also like to try pyritinol.

What do you all think? And please - I know its all my own fault but I'm looking for more than that in an answer! Thankyou.

[kassem23]

mattblack UK, on Feb 5 2010, 02:51 PM, said:

I've just joined the forum although I have been reading it very often recently. I'm hoping for some advice and I apologise in advance if I ramble on a bit (I often do).

In my early twenties I went through a phase of drug taking / experimenting. This was mainly with MDMA (Ecstacy) at the weekends. I started with 1 but by the second year I was taking 3 each time I went out. Now I don't know whether you would class this as heavy usage or recreational usage but I have seen said on here that it shouldn't really have caused too much damage. I tend to disagree.

Ever since those two years, I have felt the effects of it. I have suffered from a virtually zero attention span, a very bad working memory ( I forget what I'm thinking as I'm thinking it!). I have also lost the edge off my emotions. I would describe myself as care-free or nonchalant. Just plodding along. Things that should make me angry don't. Things that should make me happy don't. I am though content most of the time. I don't feel joy. I smile a bit but never laugh. I never get angry, just a little irritable sometimes. I am just in a constant 'don't give a crap' attitude, i think so much and so fast but my brain can't process any of it, I get fantastic ideas but can't seem to drive myself to achieve any of them, I forget things I did 5 minutes ago. I can't listen to anyone for more than 30 seconds before I glaze over and start daydreaming. Strangely I have no problem at all sleeping and NEVER wake in the night. I do find it very very hard getting up in the morning though and have 5 alarm clocks!

Thing is, since then I have found out some things. My brother has always had Aspergers Syndrome. It was diagnosed early, and this is an hereditary condition. I was diagnosed with it when I was 30 and we think it went unnoticed because I did well at school whereas my brother had learning difficulties. When I look back now at school life I'm pretty certain that I had ADD but not with the physical hyperactivity, more in the withdrawn day dreamy sense. And here in the UK, if you aint got physical hyperactivity you aint got ADD. We're well behind the Americans in research into this area. Anyway, to try and get to the point, since my MDMA dabbling days, my symptoms of ADD have become far far worse and I'm wondering if its because my brain wasn't quite right in the first place and so the messing about has had a much greater impact.

What I have always suspected is since those episodes, my brain has over produced serotonin to the point where it no longer has the desired effect, but at the detriment of my other neurotransmitters such as dopamine and acetylchorine. If I look at the lists of behaviours that serotinin affects, I know I dont have a problem or a lack of it. If I look at the same list but for dopamine, it reads like a list of behaviours that I want but dont have. Same goes for Acetylcholine. I recently did the Braverman test - and yes I know that a lot of you think its BS, but I was curious anyway. This is what I scored:

Dominance
-------------
Dopamine 28
Acetylcholine 20
GABA 24
Serotonin 41 !

Deficiency
------------
Dopamine 17
Acetylcholine 20
GABA 13
Serotonin 6

I remember going to my doctors about 3 years ago complaining of my ADD and how it was holding me back in my attempts to study and work. I told him that I dont suspect its anything to do with serotonin. I walked out with a prescription for some Prozac!!

I have tried nutrition supplements, fish oil, different diets, exersise, doing puzzles, reading a lot, and anything else that was suggested to me. None of it has made a slightest bit of difference. But I never give up and I have the belief and the determination that I can do something about this. So hear I am reading through these forums and other places on the net about Nootropics.

So basically this is what I would lik to do. Balance out those neurotransmirtters including a boost with acetylcholine (I almost feel like I'm coming down with alzeimers at times!). I would also like to boost dopamine a little. Tyrosine does not work for me by the way, I have tried up to 2g a day and I just get mild headaches and nothing more. Do whatever I can to repair the brain, and optimise how its all functioning.

My thoughts at the moment are:
Piracetam with a choline source - probably DMAE
Denepryl - but only a small dosage as recommended

I also would liek to try modafinil but its way above what I can afford.
I would also like to try pyritinol.

What do you all think? And please - I know its all my own fault but I'm looking for more than that in an answer! Thankyou.

Take a look at " Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics" and start to research yourself. And I'm just wondering, but if you were able to get Prozac from your doctor, then you are able to get Adderall/Ritalin as well right? You could try that out and quit the Prozac? It seems very much to me like you have you're the in-attentive ADD type - what is your doctors thoughts on this?

Otherwise I would suggest all the nootropics mentioned in "Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics" - I just started on a regime consisting of; oxiracetam, bacopa, ashwagandha, pyritinol, picamilon, citocholine (CDPCholine) and sulbutiamine, and it's my first day today. I've been extremely productive. Finished my organic chemistry homework (which I find very hard) very fast and then - while in the zone I finished my biology and physics problemsets. It's an awesome mix and I think I'll see even better improvements over time.

Do you own research and experiment. You could try Dual N-Back as well for fluid intelligence and working memory as well as attention problems.

Best of luck,
A

[mattblack UK]

kassem23, on Feb 5 2010, 04:29 PM, said:

Take a look at " Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics" and start to research yourself. And I'm just wondering, but if you were able to get Prozac from your doctor, then you are able to get Adderall/Ritalin as well right? You could try that out and quit the Prozac? It seems very much to me like you have you're the in-attentive ADD type - what is your doctors thoughts on this?

Otherwise I would suggest all the nootropics mentioned in "Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics" - I just started on a regime consisting of; oxiracetam, bacopa, ashwagandha, pyritinol, picamilon, citocholine (CDPCholine) and sulbutiamine, and it's my first day today. I've been extremely productive. Finished my organic chemistry homework (which I find very hard) very fast and then - while in the zone I finished my biology and physics problemsets. It's an awesome mix and I think I'll see even better improvements over time.

Do you own research and experiment. You could try Dual N-Back as well for fluid intelligence and working memory as well as attention problems.

Best of luck,
A

I never bothered with the prozac, It seemed to me that an increase in serotonin was the last thing I needed. My ex wife suffered from clinical depression, and her opinion of prozac was that it made her feel kind of emotionally flat, with the edge taken off everything. Thats how I feel naturally, I don't need prozac to do that! Plus my doctor was on prozac himself and kind of obsessed with it. He used to just prescribe it freely to anyone who came to him with any kind of mental issue. I tried telling him that the problem that was bothering me most was my inattention and brain fog, and I told him my own thoughts on the possibility that I had ADD of primarily the inattentive type. But this is the UK we're talking about. He bluntly told me that he has ADHD kids in all the time and they are literally bouncing off the furniture and chaos. I tried telling him that I wasn't complaining of hyperactivity and also it was a little unfair comparing me with a 7 year old kid! he wasn't convinced though. But that's the UK for you, if you want diagnosed with ADD you have to be a kid and physically hyperactive or else you're dismissed. Unless of course you are lucky to have a good doctor whos a little more up to date on these things.

That is quite a mix you have there! I'm pretty sure that my budget is not going to allow for that... I was gonna get the bulk powder piracetam to start with but then I became concerned on how well it would keep as 500g would last me several months. I am going to opt instead for capsules. I should be able to get 300 x 1200mg for about £23 (plus probably the same again for postage!) As well as trying to rebalance the neurotransmitters, I'm also looking to repair the best I can and I notice theres another MDMA thread going on with a few suggestions in there. Thanks for bringing the Dual N Back to my attention I will give that a go. I notice that I can pick up ashwagandha, bacopa, and lions mane extract pretty cheap so I will add those to my essential list. Maybe mucuna for a dopamine boost (can anyone tell me how effective this is?). I was also interested huperzine A but I notice from a lot of other threads that this can potentially cause problems.

[Animal]

mattblack UK, on Feb 6 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

But this is the UK we're talking about. He bluntly told me that he has ADHD kids in all the time and they are literally bouncing off the furniture and chaos. I tried telling him that I wasn't complaining of hyperactivity and also it was a little unfair comparing me with a 7 year old kid! he wasn't convinced though. But that's the UK for you, if you want diagnosed with ADD you have to be a kid and physically hyperactive or else you're dismissed. Unless of course you are lucky to have a good doctor whos a little more up to date on these things.

I don't know why you think that a particular doctor represents a whole country, you need to stop complaining "oh but this is the UK we're talking about" and go and find another doctor if you're not satisfied. Besides was there something specific you wanted from your doctor, such as a psychostimulant? Because this will not improve your memory or emotional lability.

[medicineman]

no, the op is absolutely right.... the fact that ritalin abuse is extremely high, with kids, literally selling off their ritalin for up to 5 Euros a pop, as much as an ecstasy tablet, makes doctors extremely strict in prescribing ritalin to cases with even obvious cases..... Hell, I remember friends with ADHD who were offering to sell me their meds, and Im talking more than just that kid who has ADHD, i mean people who i never thought had it, were coming up saying they would sort me out for like 3$. so yea, UK doctors are more reluctant, and to be honest, for good reasons. I knew people who tried injecting ritalin on a come down after ecstasy and ended up getting massive cellulitis and edema on their thigh...... and others taking up to 20 ritalin on a binge of drugs............

[tepol]

Animal, on Feb 5 2010, 10:13 PM, said:

mattblack UK, on Feb 6 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

But this is the UK we're talking about. He bluntly told me that he has ADHD kids in all the time and they are literally bouncing off the furniture and chaos. I tried telling him that I wasn't complaining of hyperactivity and also it was a little unfair comparing me with a 7 year old kid! he wasn't convinced though. But that's the UK for you, if you want diagnosed with ADD you have to be a kid and physically hyperactive or else you're dismissed. Unless of course you are lucky to have a good doctor whos a little more up to date on these things.

I don't know why you think that a particular doctor represents a whole country, you need to stop complaining "oh but this is the UK we're talking about" and go and find another doctor if you're not satisfied. Besides was there something specific you wanted from your doctor, such as a psychostimulant? Because this will not improve your memory or emotional lability.

Im afraid in the uk it usually does , I have possible eds and on average it takes over 10 yrs to get diagnose .. thats how bad it is here .

I know its free but its only reallty useful in critical situations or very basic needs , beyond that its like bad wet dream.

[rashlan]

tepol, on Apr 15 2010, 02:01 PM, said:

Animal, on Feb 5 2010, 10:13 PM, said:

mattblack UK, on Feb 6 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

But this is the UK we're talking about. He bluntly told me that he has ADHD kids in all the time and they are literally bouncing off the furniture and chaos. I tried telling him that I wasn't complaining of hyperactivity and also it was a little unfair comparing me with a 7 year old kid! he wasn't convinced though. But that's the UK for you, if you want diagnosed with ADD you have to be a kid and physically hyperactive or else you're dismissed. Unless of course you are lucky to have a good doctor whos a little more up to date on these things.

I don't know why you think that a particular doctor represents a whole country, you need to stop complaining "oh but this is the UK we're talking about" and go and find another doctor if you're not satisfied. Besides was there something specific you wanted from your doctor, such as a psychostimulant? Because this will not improve your memory or emotional lability.

Im afraid in the uk it usually does , I have possible eds and on average it takes over 10 yrs to get diagnose .. thats how bad it is here .

I know its free but its only reallty useful in critical situations or very basic needs , beyond that its like bad wet dream.

Yeah i totally agree, I'm from the UK and have to get my GP to refer me to a private doctor if i want something in particular prescribed.

This post has been edited by rashlan: 15 April 2010 - 06:53 PM

[outsider]

If you are into herbs then reishi is thought to develop will power.

[Lallante]

Interesting. I've never heard anyone describe these effects from MDMA usage... but it strikes a chord, especially the "never angry" part. The difference is, I think of this as a MASSIVE advantage over most people. Anger is a terrible emotion. The only thing that can make me angry now is cruelty or unfairness to others (especially those not able to defend themselves). I also dont have much problem with happiness, I am in fact almost always happy - I would say it was like my base level of happiness/calm went up.

[chrono]

Go see some different doctors. Try to get something else for treating ADD, maybe atomoxetine or guanfacine. Doctors are generally more likely to diagnose/prescribe if they don't think you're looking for psychostims.

I think having ADD and asperger's makes it even more difficult to say that drugs did this to you. A lot goes on in your early 20s.

[Animal]

tepol, on Apr 15 2010, 02:01 PM, said:

Animal, on Feb 5 2010, 10:13 PM, said:

mattblack UK, on Feb 6 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

But this is the UK we're talking about. He bluntly told me that he has ADHD kids in all the time and they are literally bouncing off the furniture and chaos. I tried telling him that I wasn't complaining of hyperactivity and also it was a little unfair comparing me with a 7 year old kid! he wasn't convinced though. But that's the UK for you, if you want diagnosed with ADD you have to be a kid and physically hyperactive or else you're dismissed. Unless of course you are lucky to have a good doctor whos a little more up to date on these things.

I don't know why you think that a particular doctor represents a whole country, you need to stop complaining "oh but this is the UK we're talking about" and go and find another doctor if you're not satisfied. Besides was there something specific you wanted from your doctor, such as a psychostimulant? Because this will not improve your memory or emotional lability.

Im afraid in the uk it usually does , I have possible eds and on average it takes over 10 yrs to get diagnose .. thats how bad it is here .

I know its free but its only reallty useful in critical situations or very basic needs , beyond that its like bad wet dream.

Well I have had excellent experiences with the NHS, and through my psychiatrist I was able to not only experiment with many different medications, but also cure the issues which plagued me. So you may have to get referred to a specialist? It's the same in every other western country if you want to get some of the more potent/abusable pharmaceuticals.

"Oh this is the uk whine whine whine" How about actually getting off your ass and taking your well-being into your own hands by actively pursuing a treatment route, rather then giving up because you couldn't get phet of your GP, which you have somehow convinced yourself is the cure for all your woes. You want to be diagnosed with something? What kind of idiotic attitude is this... If you are displaying symptoms of a disorder, you will get diagnosed with it. Mongs from the internet self-diagnosing with the expert broscience they read on a forum are the bane of doctors everywhere.

[chrono]

Animal, on Apr 16 2010, 08:28 PM, said:

"Oh this is the uk whine whine whine" How about actually getting off your ass and taking your well-being into your own hands by actively pursuing a treatment route, rather then giving up because you couldn't get phet of your GP, which you have somehow convinced yourself is the cure for all your woes. You want to be diagnosed with something? What kind of idiotic attitude is this... If you are displaying symptoms of a disorder, you will get diagnosed with it. Mongs from the internet self-diagnosing with the expert broscience they read on a forum are the bane of doctors everywhere.

I don't think having the symptoms is any guarantee of getting the correct diagnosis/treatment. It depends so much on an individual doctor's understanding of the condition, what treatments they "agree" with, and if there are any factors which encourage them to be cautious (like there are with ADD, and many psychiatric disorders). I've wasted years going down the wrong path because a doctor was sure their easy answer was the right one. With ADD, I think this can manifest with doctors being either too conservative, or too ready to prescribe psychostims.

That said, I agree unreservedly about getting off your ass. So many people seem to think that their health is the doctor's responsibility, and the options they present are what they're stuck with. If your doctor isn't willing to provide you with effective care, get another one. I'm not that familiar with NHS procedures, but as someone with no job/insurance who is paying cash to be able to see a good doctor, I'm going to bet there are other options.