21 replies to this topic

[Skötkonung]

I was curious if anyone had tried a diet based on paleolithic regional availability? I'm thinking of trying one for a month to see how I feel.

Recently I read this Nature article:
Nutrigenomics: goals and strategies

The overview:
Nutrigenomics is the application of high-throughput genomics tools in nutrition research. Applied wisely, it will promote an increased understanding of how nutrition influences metabolic pathways and homeostatic control, how this regulation is disturbed in the early phase of a diet-related disease and to what extent individual sensitizing genotypes contribute to such diseases. Ultimately, nutrigenomics will allow effective dietary-intervention strategies to recover normal homeostasis and to prevent diet-related diseases.

Nutrigenomics has been associated with the idea of personalized nutrition based on genotype. While there is hope that nutrigenomics will ultimately enable such personalized dietary advice, it is a science still in its infancy and its contribution to public health over the next decade is thought to be major.

However, I can't help but wonder: How would my body respond to a diet that was composed of foods entirely native to my region of origin (North-Western Europe)?

I feel this diet will be fairly plain, but here are my approved items. I'm deriving my list from plants and animals that could be naturally found by Northern / Western European populations during the winter months.

- Fatty beef roast (analogue to Reindeer)
- Pork / Pork belly (analogue to wild Boar)
- Chicken or Duck (analogue to wild birds)
- Kale (unknown origin, grows well in cold climates)
- Chard (grows native in the Mid-Southern Europe and Asia)
- Broccoli (grows native throughout Europe)
- Fish
- Shellfish
- Eggs
- Organ meat if I can find / afford it from organic sources
- Blood sausage
- Small amounts of frozen blueberries (common in Northern Europe)
- Mushrooms
- Fish oil
- Nuts / seeds (link to article on historic consumption of nuts)

Here is some information on the Sami people. They live amongst the arctic circle in Northern Sweden, Norway, etc and eat almost exclusively animal protein / fat. I'm not of Sami ethnicity, but they are the closest thing to a subsistence culture still living in Northern Europe.

Some foods that I originally thought might have been eaten by indigenous, Northern European living peoples are:
- Some form of potato - Most potatoes (sweet potato, etc) are tropically grown and originally from South America.
- Parsnip - Originally from Eurasia, brought to Europe through early trade (?). Only can be grown in cold climates, so may still be appropriate if in limited quantities?
- Carrot - The modern carrot is from Afghanistan, brought to Europe through trade. Wild carrots in Europe are only edible in the spring and in small amounts. Some small amount of carrot may be acceptable in the diet?
- Beets - Traditionally available in Southern to Mid Europe along the Atlantic coast and in Asia. Not historically available to Northern Europe until the introduction of agriculture.I may reconcile the regional discrepancy by including some beet greens (chard).
- Spinach- Grown in warm climates, native to Asia.

The only modern food I will consume is whey protein (30g protein, 2.5g carb) immediately following a workout. Organic butter or olive oil may be used as a substitute cooking oil. Animal fat is preferable. As far as I'm aware, I'm not dairy intolerant.

Regarding macro-nutrient ratios, I will try and get 1- 1.5g of protein per 1lb of body weight. The rest will come from fat, then carbohydrate (between 20-70g daily). The chard, broccoli, and kale are all considered "super foods" for their high levels of beneficial phyto-chemicals. Combined with the organ meats and limit tubers, berries, nuts, and mushrooms, I shouldn't suffer any nutritional deficiencies.

Side note:
In hindsight, my diet seems similar to the Paleo diet, but the Paleo diet would have varied widely depending on region of origin and climate. Furthermore, some Paleolithic cultures (such as in the Americas) were consuming legumes, tubers, and grains, whiles others (such as in Northern Europe) were not. It seems that the Paleo diet is a little Euro-centric?

[Skötkonung]

This is interesting:

With 21st-century science promising better living through genetic engineering, and myriad diet fads claiming to be the answer to obesity and disease, this exploration of the coevolution of communities and their native foods couldn't be more timely. Ethnobiologist Nabhan (Coming Home to Eat) investigates the intricate web of culture, food and environment to show that even though 99.9% of the genetic makeup of all humans is identical, "each traditional cuisine has evolved to fit the inhabitants of a particular landscape or seascape over the last several millennia." Sardinians are genetically sensitive to fava beans, which can give them anemia but can also protect them from the malaria once epidemic in the region. Navajos are similarly sensitive to sage. In both cases, traditional knowledge allows safe interactions with these powerful medicine/poisons through cooking methods or food combinations. Nabhan questions the wisdom of genetic therapy, which "normalizes" the "bad" genes that can cause sickness but also enhance immunity. Most inspiring in this bioethnic detective story are Cretans, maintaining their health for centuries through traditional living, and Native Americans and Hawaiians, whose communities, devastated by diabetes, find an antidote by returning to their traditional foods, customs and agriculture. Mixing hard science with personal anecdotes, Nabhan convincingly argues that health comes from a genetically appropriate diet inextricably entwined with a healthy land and culture.

I might check out this book, although the reviews state that it is poorly written:
http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/1559634669

Edited by Skotkonung, 26 March 2010 - 06:30 PM.

[JackChristopher]

Regarding macro-nutrient ratios, I will try and get 1- 1.5g of protein per 1lb of body weight. The rest will come from fat, then carbohydrate (between 20-70g daily).

In hindsight, my diet seems similar to the Paleo diet, but the Paleo diet would have varied widely depending on region of origin and climate. Furthermore, some Paleolithic cultures (such as in the Americas) were consuming legumes, tubers, and grains, whiles others (such as in Northern Europe) were not. It seems that the Paleo diet is a little Euro-centric?

You mean lean mass? Also what are your goals (beside the experiment)? I assume you're continuing your normal muscle building regimen.
***
I'm probably screwed on Nutrigenomics front—at least until the field advances a bit. My background is pretty mixed. I have recent ancestors from 3 continents.

[tunt01]

pretty interesting thought, skot. let us know how it works out. i'm skeptical to think you will see much difference, because there probably isn't that much "evolutionary drift" to really differentiate between similar food sources in a way that is meaningful enough to you.

perhaps you would notice it much more if you immediately swapped to a standard sub saharan african diet after giving your current food regimen a try for a month

[jazzcat]

I'm not sure how you know where you're ancestors came from when you mention paleolithic regional availability. Did you participate in the Sci Amer Human Genome Project? I think that test tells you where your ancestors were from originally (thousands of years ago if not tens of thousands of years ago).

I'm not sure I believe that knowing where my ancestors are from is necessarily enough info to base a change in diet on. I mean isn't it possible that there has been some changes in your genetic makeup since your ancestors lived thousands of years ago. I wasn't aware that nutrigenomic testing indicates where your ancestors came from, if you are basing this on that testing. I guess I'm not sure what you base some of your basic assumptions on (NW-Euro genetics and or their paleolithic diet). I'm not sure I understand what you mean by paleolithic in terms of number of generations ago and how that might still be significant to your genetic and dietary needs today. I also wonder how the first three meats listed are actually like those that your ancestors may have lived off of.

I guess I'm just trying to raise some questions for you to consider and to help me understand your methodology.

[e Volution]

I am extremely fascinated by this idea and glad you are intrigued also.. I am already practising it to some degree, but have a number of outstanding issues in my mind. A few remarks/questions:

1. The vast majority ( > 99% ) of our evolutionary history is out of [Eastern] Africa. The latest evidence suggests all populations outside of Africa today are descendant from possibly just one band (no more than 200 individuals) who left around 60,000 years ago (I'm sure you know this already). Based on this, the migration upwards towards Northern Europe would have taken some time* so that leaves an even smaller window of time for adaptation to the local environment. What if your particular genetic lineage spent more time in various regions throughout the journey, with your most recent ancestors arriving only lately to location X where you trace your heritage back to?

2. Related to above, do we also lose ~10,000 years (or much less for most of us Northern Europeans) in this 60K year time period due to the adoption of agriculture? How does this adoption to agriculture effect our adaptation to a local diet, or diet in general. Interested in your thoughts...

3. Isn't trying it for a month and seeing how you feel a little too subjective to get any meaningful answer? Maybe blood work (possibly extensive) would be required to distinguish any effects. I guess if your current macro-nutrient ratios are substantially different to this, then the result will be more telling. But my understanding is the many/most of the benefits would be difficult to distinguish, like reduced inflammation towards certain foods, and varying the different vitamin & mineral forms and absorption (like say reduced beta carotene consumption if this theory dictates a low evolutionary intake). Most of these things would be pretty small changes, and possibly only make a significant difference over a lifetime. Once again how does most of our time spent in Africa effect this?

4. What are your thoughts on certain plant phyto-chemicals being beneficial and evolutionary history. Arm chair hypothesising about the idea makes me think their benefit is (mostly) coincidental to biology rather than evolutionary selection at play. Obviously most of their anti-cancer effects wouldn't have been selected for due to reproduction occurring before any potential benefit? I guess the anti-inflammatory aspects could have been selected for, but then how do we reconcile this with modern medical science showing multiple compounds outside our evolutionary history also show anti-inflammatory effects.

5. I would personally cut the whey protein for this month trial. At worst you lose a small % of potential muscle gains, at best you remove a significant confounding variable. Also why did you settle on 1- 1.5g of protein per 1lb of body weight? Do you have evidence this is most likely the intake of your most recent hunter gatherer ancestors?

All these things sort of point to some cognitive-dissonance I have about this idea. I really like the idea itself, but then I also like Dr Harris' (paleonu.com) saying along the lines of 'Medical science first, evolutionary history (or paleolithic reasoning) second'. It also seems at odds with many ideas we have regarding longevity and supplementation. If the diet does work and show some meaningful benefits, how do you plan on reconciling the potentially different agendas of optimum reproductive health based on the adoption of a paleolithic regional availability diet to the many flavours of 'ImmInst' longevity diet and protocols? I guess you could just sum it up with are nightshades a potentially net-negative to a Northern European who has an already rich phyto-nutrient filled diet? Is this sort of the reason you are looking into this? I'll stop writing now haha....


* The data is probably around but I haven't investigated because I purchased as a present for my mothers birthday a kit & entry into the National Geographic Genographic Project. When the results come in it should be very interesting to see my family's (or at least maternal line) migratory history out of Africa.

[Skötkonung]

I'm not sure how you know where you're ancestors came from when you mention paleolithic regional availability. Did you participate in the Sci Amer Human Genome Project? I think that test tells you where your ancestors were from originally (thousands of years ago if not tens of thousands of years ago).

I'm not sure I believe that knowing where my ancestors are from is necessarily enough info to base a change in diet on. I mean isn't it possible that there has been some changes in your genetic makeup since your ancestors lived thousands of years ago. I wasn't aware that nutrigenomic testing indicates where your ancestors came from, if you are basing this on that testing. I guess I'm not sure what you base some of your basic assumptions on (NW-Euro genetics and or their paleolithic diet). I'm not sure I understand what you mean by paleolithic in terms of number of generations ago and how that might still be significant to your genetic and dietary needs today. I also wonder how the first three meats listed are actually like those that your ancestors may have lived off of.

I guess I'm just trying to raise some questions for you to consider and to help me understand your methodology.

I've done the comprehensive test at 23andme.com. My continental origins was entirely European. Global similarity was Swedish and German, trailing English. Y haplogroup is I1a. None of this is terribly surprising given my mom is Swedish and my dad is from Orkney (of Pict and Norwegian ancestry).

For my haplogroup:
"For several years the prevailing theory was that during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) the predecessors of the I1 group sought refuge in the Balkans.^[4] For a time, the Ukraine was considered as an alternative. Yet, The Genographic Project claims that the founder of the I1 branch lived on the Iberian Peninsula during the LGM. Some have given southern France and the Italian peninsula as possible sites as well.^[5] Although the locations vary, proponents of the refuge theories do seem to agree on one issue: that the I1 subclade is from 15,000 to 20,000 years old.^[6]"

This seems to indicate that my family, or at least direct lineage, has been on the European continent since the Paleolithic. This was long enough for my people to develop pale skin, blonde / light brown + thin / straight hair, and light eyes as regional adaptations. I also have lactose tolerance,some gluten tolerance, and hemochromatosis - arguably all dietary adaptations. One could surmise that in the times both preceding and following the Neolithic, I have accumulated a variety of other genetic adaptations to similar regional plants / foods. In my region of origin, despite obvious changes in food supply brought by Neolithic farmers, people continue to consume a high fat diet and live long lives. Iceland consumes the least New World foods and apparently lives the longest.

Furthermore, it appears that Neolithic farming techniques were brought to Scandinavia rather late.

From The Widening Harvest: The Neolithic Transition in Europe:
"Agriculture, in the form of domesticated plants and animals, arrived in southern Scandinavian shortly after 4000 B.C. These crops and herd animals are associated with the arrival of the early Neolithic Funnel Neck Beaker (TRB) culture, which likely originated in Poland ca. 4400 B.C. and spread to northern Germany 4200 B.C...."

Hardly the 10,000-12,000 years given for Mid-East cultures. Keep in mind, many of the New World foods (potatoes, tomatoes, etc) consumed by Europeans arrived within the last 500 years. Before that, especially in isolated regions like Scandinavia, most people consumed only foods that could be grown / produced locally.

It seems to me that there is a good case for utilizing some vestigial nutrigenomic regional adaptation.

I also listed the first three meats because of their availability. My ancestors would have most likely thrived on large game (reindeer for instance), large deer (like the now extinct Irish Elk), fish, and bear (cave bear, etc), amongst others. All of these animals would have stored a good deal amount of fat due to the climate, as modern mega fauna does today. Any animal protein source should be accompanied with a decent amount of fat.

[Skötkonung]

4. What are your thoughts on certain plant phyto-chemicals being beneficial and evolutionary history. Arm chair hypothesising about the idea makes me think their benefit is (mostly) coincidental to biology rather than evolutionary selection at play. Obviously most of their anti-cancer effects wouldn't have been selected for due to reproduction occurring before any potential benefit? I guess the anti-inflammatory aspects could have been selected for, but then how do we reconcile this with modern medical science showing multiple compounds outside our evolutionary history also show anti-inflammatory effects.

5. I would personally cut the whey protein for this month trial. At worst you lose a small % of potential muscle gains, at best you remove a significant confounding variable. Also why did you settle on 1- 1.5g of protein per 1lb of body weight? Do you have evidence this is most likely the intake of your most recent hunter gatherer ancestors?

I would argue that the changes following the departure from Africa are the most recent significant changes in our evolution as a species. The various ethnicites we see today largely formed during this period. If we view ethnicity as regional adaptations, it makes sense that nutritional adaptations would be included. The epicanthic fold, for instance, exists as a result of climate. Another notable adaptation are many Northern Europeans inability to process beta-carotene into vitamin A. In an environment where little meat / dairy is consumed, such a trait could be bad for survival, however in colder climates this gene has persisted. As such, one could be on a low-fat, vegetarian diet rich in fruits and vegetables and still be deficit in vitamin A. Thus the importance of nutrigenomics. Rosacea, another Northern European disease, is now thought to be related to fructose mal-absorption (being that large fruits were historically limited to these regions) via SIBO.

4. I think there are some really positive aspects to consuming phyto-chemicals from plants. However, do we need to consume all of the bright colored fruits and vegetables to get them? I don't know.. The Cretians eat a lot of wild greens, oily fish, pork, lamb, and olive oil. They consume less fruit due to the arid climate. These people are very long lived. Similarly, the Icelandic people eat a lot of high fat food indigenous to their area and are some of the longest lived people in the world. A lot of Blue Zone culture are like this. This doesn't rule out fruit consumption, but it does not imply it is necessary for longevity either.

5. I settled on a high protein diet based on some isotope studies of European hunter-gatherer cultures. These isotope studies show Neanderthals lived almost exclusively on animal foods, while pre-modern humans also ate a diet very high in animal tissue. Humans and Neanderthals assumed the role of top predator in the European ecosystem and hunted most of the mega fauna to extinction (such as with the Irish Elk) before humans switched to subsistence agriculture.

[e Volution]

So Skötkonung, well over a month later, any updates on your experiment? I'm thinking of trying the same myself (I essentially am already, but I would have to cut out a couple of my staples), so interested in any feedback you might have. Have you settled upon or furthered the list of 'allowed' vegetables? Also, would you ever consider experimenting with meal timing/frequency?

[Skötkonung]

So Skötkonung, well over a month later, any updates on your experiment? I'm thinking of trying the same myself (I essentially am already, but I would have to cut out a couple of my staples), so interested in any feedback you might have. Have you settled upon or furthered the list of 'allowed' vegetables? Also, would you ever consider experimenting with meal timing/frequency?

To be honest, I didn't make it very long without dairy fat in my diet. I have also added to my list of vegetables to include some not native to Europe. Over all, the experiment has gone really well. I think I could easily keep this up as a lifestyle. In a couple months I think I will have a full health work-up to see how it is affecting my bio-markers.

Greens list:
Brussel Sprouts, Broccoli, Broccoli Raab, Baby Broccoli, Red Kale, Italian Kale, Green Kale, Swiss Chard / Beet Greens, Mustard Greens, Spinach, Arugala, Romaine Lettuce, Butter Lettuce, Dandelion, Asparagus, White Asparagus, Spring Greens, Fiddlehead Ferns, Red Cabbage, Green Cabbage, Green Onion, Fennel, and Watercress.

Root vegetables:
Sweet Potato, Bartlett Yam, White Onion, Yellow Onion, Red Onion, Carrots, and Parsnips.

Fruits and berries:
Strawberries, Blueberries, Blackberries, Raspberries, Lingonberries, Huckleberries, Tomatoes, and occasionally small portions of low-sugar fruits.

Nuts:
Almonds, Macadamia, Brazil Nuts. These I keep in small amounts, usually 4 or less pieces daily.

Other things I eat:
Hot peppers (Chipotle, Jalapeno, Habanero, Pablano, etc), Garlic, Fresh Herbs (Rosemary, Thyme, Chives, etc).

Fats and Protein:
Locally raised and pastured beef and pork, Free-range chicken, ducks, turkey, and their eggs, Wild game when available, Pastured / raw dairy.

I'm still keeping carbohydrate low, but had to raise it to 50-70g to accommodate extra vegetables and variation.

[HaloTeK]

So Skötkonung, well over a month later, any updates on your experiment? I'm thinking of trying the same myself (I essentially am already, but I would have to cut out a couple of my staples), so interested in any feedback you might have. Have you settled upon or furthered the list of 'allowed' vegetables? Also, would you ever consider experimenting with meal timing/frequency?

To be honest, I didn't make it very long without dairy fat in my diet. I have also added to my list of vegetables to include some not native to Europe. Over all, the experiment has gone really well. I think I could easily keep this up as a lifestyle. In a couple months I think I will have a full health work-up to see how it is affecting my bio-markers.

Greens list:
Brussel Sprouts, Broccoli, Broccoli Raab, Baby Broccoli, Red Kale, Italian Kale, Green Kale, Swiss Chard / Beet Greens, Mustard Greens, Spinach, Arugala, Romaine Lettuce, Butter Lettuce, Dandelion, Asparagus, White Asparagus, Spring Greens, Fiddlehead Ferns, Red Cabbage, Green Cabbage, Green Onion, Fennel, and Watercress.

Root vegetables:
Sweet Potato, Bartlett Yam, White Onion, Yellow Onion, Red Onion, Carrots, and Parsnips.

Fruits and berries:
Strawberries, Blueberries, Blackberries, Raspberries, Lingonberries, Huckleberries, Tomatoes, and occasionally small portions of low-sugar fruits.

Nuts:
Almonds, Macadamia, Brazil Nuts. These I keep in small amounts, usually 4 or less pieces daily.

Other things I eat:
Hot peppers (Chipotle, Jalapeno, Habanero, Pablano, etc), Garlic, Fresh Herbs (Rosemary, Thyme, Chives, etc).

Fats and Protein:
Locally raised and pastured beef and pork, Free-range chicken, ducks, turkey, and their eggs, Wild game when available, Pastured / raw dairy.

I'm still keeping carbohydrate low, but had to raise it to 50-70g to accommodate extra vegetables and variation.

Skot, I've been thinking alot about about Diet and the Mitochondrial Theory of Aging recently. I hope to have a post up soon (talking about the decrease in ROS on a high fat diet -- and about how you probably have the same lifespan on a low carb or high carb diets, but that your quality of life would be better low carb because of less ROS), but I don't have your type of willpower to put up posts!

I'm more convinced about the benefits of lower carb diets these days -- but really struggle with the question of how you are going to make sure you get all of your vitamins and minerals. I don't like to take supplements (I don't want to overdose or throw off vitmain/mineral balances!) Kurt Harris of Panu famously said "there is no magic in plants". I agree with that -- but they sure do have a lot of vitamins and minerals! I also understand that even I seem to get little headache issues and soforth if I eat too many plants or tubers(I don't seem to have the same problem with animal products, barring dairy and eggs --- curiously, refined sugar doesn't seem to give me any headache problems). There is also the small problem of an increase in the sympatheic nervous system on low carb. I seem to always have problems sleeping and teeth grinding ( I can tell more dopamine is active ) I never stayed low carb long enough to see if this would subside. I would always run to the nearest cupcake and my cortisol would drop!

Also, where are the Icelanders getting there magnesium and other vital minerals. Taking a Mag/calcium supplement is not so clearcut because they tend to feed biofilms in the gut. We still need more research!

And I would like to ask if there is anything you know of personally to lower cortisol on a low carb diet?

Finally, maybe we should all do as Ray Peat. He advocates a diet high in saturated fat/ super low in polyunsaturates and moderate in sugar and low/moderate in protein. He doesn't have any worry for the sugar at all because of how high your metabolism would run on a diet very low in polyunsaturates. All very interesting stuff.

[gregandbeaker]

I'm more convinced about the benefits of lower carb diets these days -- but really struggle with the question of how you are going to make sure you get all of your vitamins and minerals. I don't like to take supplements (I don't want to overdose or throw off vitmain/mineral balances!) Kurt Harris of Panu famously said "there is no magic in plants".

You can get most of what you "need" eating offal, understand that what you need to live vitally and healthfully, and what you "want" to live as long as possible are probably different. If biting into a braised goat heart makes your stomach churn you might try something like liverwurst, which is a mixture of grass-fed beef trim (30%),liver (30%), heart (20%) and kidney (20%). Tastes good too. Learn how to cook and the world is your (cow) oyster. I used to take a LOT of vitamins and supplements. Now I take vitamin D and magnesium and eat as close to the bone as possible.

On the other hand, although there may be no magic in plants, steamed broccoli rolled in garlic butter is damn delicious.

[Skötkonung]

I'm more convinced about the benefits of lower carb diets these days -- but really struggle with the question of how you are going to make sure you get all of your vitamins and minerals. I don't like to take supplements (I don't want to overdose or throw off vitmain/mineral balances!) Kurt Harris of Panu famously said "there is no magic in plants". I agree with that -- but they sure do have a lot of vitamins and minerals! I also understand that even I seem to get little headache issues and soforth if I eat too many plants or tubers(I don't seem to have the same problem with animal products, barring dairy and eggs --- curiously, refined sugar doesn't seem to give me any headache problems). There is also the small problem of an increase in the sympatheic nervous system on low carb. I seem to always have problems sleeping and teeth grinding ( I can tell more dopamine is active ) I never stayed low carb long enough to see if this would subside. I would always run to the nearest cupcake and my cortisol would drop!

Also, where are the Icelanders getting there magnesium and other vital minerals. Taking a Mag/calcium supplement is not so clearcut because they tend to feed biofilms in the gut. We still need more research!

It is absolutely essential to eat plants on a low-carb diet. Just because some people can thrive on a plant-less diet based around raw meat (Inuit) doesn't they are functioning optimally. I advocate for consuming large amounts of varied greens each day, in combination to berries and low-sugar fruits, small quantities of nuts, the occasional tuber, raw dairy, and of course meat. You may be able to get by with no (or very little) plants, but that is not an experiment I would personally undertake.

I regularly track my food intake on CRON-o-meter and have absolutely no micro-nutrient deficiencies. In fact, I could probably cut back on my vegetable intake and do just fine. My magnesium for yesterday, for instance, comes to 610.6mg (153% RDI). I got it primarily from vegetables, fish, pork, and two brazilnuts. My fat intake was almost split evenly between MUFA and SFA, with only a paltry 14g coming from PUFA. Because I eat a lot of pastured dairy and meat, my n-3 ratio easily stays equal to my n-6.

You should really re-visit the low-carb experience, keeping your carbohydrate initially very low (sub 50g) and then gradually bringing it up to 50-70g daily. Full adaptation to low-carb can take several weeks so be patient. If you get sugar cravings, I would recommend using a granulated stevia extract whipped up with some heavy cream. It makes a fantastic desert, or topping to berries.

Regarding your dairy issues, do butter and cream give you headaches? Neither of these should have much casein or lactose in them.

[hypnotoad]

How is this working out for you? Notice any difference in how you look/feel/perform?

I think my current diet is somewhat similar to yours, as is my overall lifestyle of serious lean muscle achieved in a way that balances longevity and health vs the "ideal" muscle building scenario of massive insulin via carbs and extreme nutrient overload. What's best for building maximum muscle growth is not the same for overall lifespan and aging concerns, but there is a balance that I'm trying to reach.

FYI: Bodyweight as of now is 272 at a height of 5'10", bodyfat is in the low 20s which until recently I never bothered to minimize since lifting heavy and being thick and strong was all I cared about.

Anyway.. I have started to drop a lot of fat once I cut out those neolithic scourges of sugar and grains.

My new diet (as of 3 months now) consists of:

- grass fed beef when possible, corn fed if I'm out in a restaurant.
- open range chicken when possible
- open range pork
- chunk light tuna (a few times a week)

- eggs
- occasional small amounts of cheese cheddar or mozzarella
- butter
- olive oils in small amounts
- almonds/walnuts/pecans/cashews


- daily salad melange including onions, carrots, mushrooms, bell peppers, cauliflower, broccoli with organic Cesar dressing.
- occasional 1/2 sweet potato with butter

- a few squares of 85% dark chocolate for dessert.

- once a week I eat a chocolate cookie at the bookstore coffee house.

With each meal I take fish oil capsules and 1/2 baby aspirin for omega-3/inflammation, 2-3K IUs vitamin D3, curcumin and pomegranate tablets, 3-4 Life Extension Mix tabs, Life Extension prostate formula, DHEA, + lately I have been taking Life Extension Chlorophyllin wirh each meal since all the meat I eat has me a bit worried over AGE nastiness.

Very simple and easy to follow

I eat twice a day after a 16 hour fast. Once I'm at my target body fat of <10% I will increase to 3 meals per day and continue with the fasting. Would like to get down to a very lean 220ish.

Just curious Skötkonung, what is your supplementation and training regime like? While I am dropping fat I am in more of a maintenance mode in the weight room, although I have been getting stronger on my version of paleo and still dropping fat, so this diet really agrees with my system as a whole.

FYI, I am of thick German/Scandinavian descent and somewhat insulin resistant after years of woofing down lots of carbs. Not nearly at diabetic levels or anything, but I wish I would have realized the metabolic damage that had on me years ago! Could have achieved nearly the same amount of muscle with much less metabolic damage. Consider yourself lucky that you are still young and know so much about health beyond the standard old-school bodybuilding advice!

Edited by hypnotoad, 21 May 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[Skötkonung]

I think you are definitely on the right track to losing weight. Are you monitoring your total caloric and carbohydrate intake and are you doing any time of cardiovascular exercise (walking, sprints, jogging) in addition to your weight lifting? You might consider dropping the carbohydrates even lower to induce a ketogenic state for rapid weight loss.

My supplement regimen is fairly simple: I take vitamin D3, carnosine, (sometimes ALA / ALCAR), glucosamine with MSM, and melatonin. Every month or two I will splurge and eat excess carbohydrates, I take benfotiamine.

I was doing 40-70g carbohydrates daily when I started this diet, but I have since increased it to under 100g daily. I found myself totally glycogen depleated after I added running to my weight lifitng routine. I've been getting my additional carbohydrates from sweet potatoes and yams. I've also doubled my berry and fruit intake. I don't think there is much more room in my diet left for extra green vegetables - my intake is already at 8-12 servings or so a day.

[TheFountain]

I wonder what the implications would be for someone of seriously mixed ethnicity. Does it make them more susceptible to regional diets/outcomes or more diversified and adapted? Furthermore if someone decided to consume the diet consistent with one aspect of their ethnicity would it bring out more of these predisposed genetic traits? If someone has 20% greek in them would eat the diet of that region result in a greater olive complexion? If the same person had 30% Irish in them would eating the diet specific to that region result in a more pale complexion and lighter hair? Or is this all bogus and too much of a leap to think regional diets will have any effect whatsoever? That and the fact that we have still evolved (inbreeding notwithstanding) since paleolithic times begs the question.

[hypnotoad]

I think you are definitely on the right track to losing weight. Are you monitoring your total caloric and carbohydrate intake and are you doing any time of cardiovascular exercise (walking, sprints, jogging) in addition to your weight lifting? You might consider dropping the carbohydrates even lower to induce a ketogenic state for rapid weight loss.

My supplement regimen is fairly simple: I take vitamin D3, carnosine, (sometimes ALA / ALCAR), glucosamine with MSM, and melatonin. Every month or two I will splurge and eat excess carbohydrates, I take benfotiamine.

I was doing 40-70g carbohydrates daily when I started this diet, but I have since increased it to under 100g daily. I found myself totally glycogen depleated after I added running to my weight lifitng routine. I've been getting my additional carbohydrates from sweet potatoes and yams. I've also doubled my berry and fruit intake. I don't think there is much more room in my diet left for extra green vegetables - my intake is already at 8-12 servings or so a day.

No I'm not counting calories, have dropped about 25 lbs in the past 2.5 months. Not killing myself and cautious not to lose any strength. If I start to stall for too long before my target weight I'll bump things up a notch. As it stand now most of my carbs/simple sugars come from the dark chocolate which only has about 8 grams of carbs per daily serving (40 grams). Those 85% bars are all fat


I'm a little surprised you don't supplement more extensively - Not that your diet isn't providing more than enough of the mundane vitamins and minerals, but I mean stuff like Creatine, Resveratrol and some of the other exotics.

[Skötkonung]

I think you are definitely on the right track to losing weight. Are you monitoring your total caloric and carbohydrate intake and are you doing any time of cardiovascular exercise (walking, sprints, jogging) in addition to your weight lifting? You might consider dropping the carbohydrates even lower to induce a ketogenic state for rapid weight loss.

My supplement regimen is fairly simple: I take vitamin D3, carnosine, (sometimes ALA / ALCAR), glucosamine with MSM, and melatonin. Every month or two I will splurge and eat excess carbohydrates, I take benfotiamine.

I was doing 40-70g carbohydrates daily when I started this diet, but I have since increased it to under 100g daily. I found myself totally glycogen depleated after I added running to my weight lifitng routine. I've been getting my additional carbohydrates from sweet potatoes and yams. I've also doubled my berry and fruit intake. I don't think there is much more room in my diet left for extra green vegetables - my intake is already at 8-12 servings or so a day.

No I'm not counting calories, have dropped about 25 lbs in the past 2.5 months. Not killing myself and cautious not to lose any strength. If I start to stall for too long before my target weight I'll bump things up a notch. As it stand now most of my carbs/simple sugars come from the dark chocolate which only has about 8 grams of carbs per daily serving (40 grams). Those 85% bars are all fat


I'm a little surprised you don't supplement more extensively - Not that your diet isn't providing more than enough of the mundane vitamins and minerals, but I mean stuff like Creatine, Resveratrol and some of the other exotics.

To be honest, my simple supplements regimen is killing my budget as it is. I work in academia and we don't make much money.

[e Volution]

I'm a little surprised you don't supplement more extensively - Not that your diet isn't providing more than enough of the mundane vitamins and minerals, but I mean stuff like Creatine, Resveratrol and some of the other exotics.

To be honest, my simple supplements regimen is killing my budget as it is. I work in academia and we don't make much money.

This might be a little off-topic, but what additional supplements would you take if budget wasn't a limiting factor? Or would this be better as a PM? Basically what supps get the Skötkonung seal of approval?

[Skötkonung]

I'm a little surprised you don't supplement more extensively - Not that your diet isn't providing more than enough of the mundane vitamins and minerals, but I mean stuff like Creatine, Resveratrol and some of the other exotics.

To be honest, my simple supplements regimen is killing my budget as it is. I work in academia and we don't make much money.

This might be a little off-topic, but what additional supplements would you take if budget wasn't a limiting factor? Or would this be better as a PM? Basically what supps get the Skötkonung seal of approval?

Hah, I assume you are compiling a list of the ultimate supplements? Well I am quite ignorant on this topic, some of the guys in the supplements forum might be better to ask!

If I had unlimited money, I would probably look at Michael's or DukeNukem's supplement list. They have put a lot of time and effort into research what they take. I would probably also investigate naturally occurring substances that prevent glycation, cancer, inflammation and LDL oxidation.

A few off the top of my head that might be worth investigating:
Oleuropein, grape seed extract, sulforaphane, indole-3-carbinol, an anthocyanidin complex, turmeric, an carotenoid complex, ellagic acid (ellagitannins), quinic acid from huckleberry bark, ECGC, allicin, allyl propyl disulfide (for insulin sensitivity), etc. I would use these more as a fortification of my existing diet, not as a substitution. I would also want to have plenty of regular blood work done to make sure I was getting the correct dosages / not poisoning myself.

Edited by Skötkonung, 27 May 2010 - 08:24 AM.

[hypnotoad]

My supplement regimen is fairly simple: I take vitamin D3, carnosine, (sometimes ALA / ALCAR), glucosamine with MSM, and melatonin. Every month or two I will splurge and eat excess carbohydrates, I take benfotiamine.

Just ordered some Carnosine from LEF along with more D3... I assume you take it for the AGEs? Damn I'm going to have to start making more stews since I LOVE the beef/prok/chicken but am starting to get concerned about excessive glycation the more I read about it. That Chlorophyllin I'm using is supposed to help too, although via a different mechanism if I'm not mistaken.

FYI Carnosine is not the cheapest supplement out there lol. Not the worst, but definitely not the cheapest. LEF is having an overstock sale and I picked up the D3 for 6.60 per bottle instead of 22.

Edited by hypnotoad, 27 May 2010 - 09:23 PM.

[e Volution]

This might be a little off-topic, but what additional supplements would you take if budget wasn't a limiting factor? Or would this be better as a PM? Basically what supps get the Skötkonung seal of approval?

Hah, I assume you are compiling a list of the ultimate supplements? Well I am quite ignorant on this topic, some of the guys in the supplements forum might be better to ask!

I am And not by supplements, but by character and with an individual weighting on where I think the person lies on the risk-aversion scale. Your ahead of Kismet and Michael but behind Sillewater and DukeNukem for example It's my shortcut to the insatiable appetite for supplementation I have developed, whilst realising I have a very bottom-up thinking style and approach to tackling problems and thus am years away from fully understanding the complexity of the issue (but obviously not willing to wait lol).