19 replies to this topic

[Skötkonung]

While I generally eschew a "neolithic"-type diet, I'll admit that grains can be a good source of nutrients provided they are adequately prepared. The most basic method of preparing grains is prolonged soaking in water, followed by cooking. This combination reduces the level of water-soluble and heat-sensitive toxins and anti-nutrients such as tannins, saponins, digestive enzyme inhibitors and lectins, as well as flatulence factors.

It also partially degrades phytic acid, which is a inhibitor of mineral absorption, trypsin inhibitor, and cariogenic (phytic acid binds with tooth calcium to block the formation / maintenance of enamel - see below).

Blog entry on phytic acid load and tooth decay: Reversing Tooth Decay
Study: Inhibition of trypsin activity in vitro by phytate
Study: Phytate: its chemistry, occurrence, food interactions, nutritional significance, and methods of analysis

Soaking does not reduce phytic acid in grains that have been heat-treated, while cooking without soaking first also does not have much effect on phytic acid. Germination (sprouting) further increases the digestibility and vitamin content of grains with a continued phytic acid reduction, however the process still leaves much to be desired.

Thus, the most effective way to reduce anti-nutrient content is through fermentation. Many cultures have independently learned how to utilize this process to increase the nutrient density of their grains.

UN Report: FERMENTED CEREALS. A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE
Study: The importance of lactic acid bacteria for phytate degradation during cereal dough fermentation.
Study: Influence of germination and fermentation on bioaccessibility of zinc and iron from food grains.
Study: Phytic Acid Degradation in Complementary Foods Using Phytase Naturally Occurring in Whole Grain Cereals
Study: Moderate Decrease of pH by Sourdough Fermentation Is Sufficient To Reduce Phytate Content of Whole Wheat Flour through Endogenous Phytase Activity

Fermentation reduces lectin levels substantially. Lectins are further reduced by cooking.
Study: Effect of Natural Fermentation on the Lectin of Lentils Measured by Immunological Methods

Bacterial fermentation produces lysine and reduces enzyme inhibitors, which makes wheat protein almost a complete protein.
Study: Influence of natural fermentation of cereals on available lysine.
Study: Effect of natural fermentation on protein fractions and in vitro protein digestibility of rice
Study: Effect of fermentation on sorghum protein fractions and in vitro protein digestibility
Study: Effect of Germination and Fermentation on in vitro Starch and Protein Digestibility of Pearl Millet

How does one ferment grains? Typically, grains are soaked, ground, and allowed to sour ferment for times ranging from 12 hours to several days. In some cases, a portion of the bran is removed before or after grinding. Sounds familiar... sourdough bread!

Study: Sourdough Fermentation or Addition of Organic Acids or Corresponding Salts to Bread Improves Nutritional Properties of Starch in Healthy Human
Study: Making bread with sourdough improves mineral bioavailability from reconstituted whole wheat flour in rats
Study: Prolonged Fermentation of Whole Wheat Sourdough Reduces Phytate Level and Increases Soluble Magnesium

Given what we've seen above, we would expect to see improved markers of health in those consuming fermented grain breads versus white bread.

Study: The effect of whole grain wheat sourdough bread consumption on serum lipids in healthy normoglycemic/normoinsulinemic and hyperglycemic/hyperinsulinemic adults depends on presence of the APOE E3/E3 genotype: a randomized controlled trial
"In summary, 6-week consumption of whole grain wheat sourdough bread did not significantly modulate serum lipids in NGI or HGI adults; however, it significantly increased LDL-cholesterol, TAG and TAG:HDL-cholesterol in participants with the APOE E3/E3 genotype."

Oops, what is going on here? I'm E3/E3 and I'm wondering what about fermented wheat versus white bread is going to wreck my lipid profile. Any ideas?

EDIT:
This last study is absolutely fascinating - see the discussion portion. It contains references to other studies that look at genotype and response to the addition / removal of various nutrients in the diet. Must read!

Edited by Skötkonung, 14 June 2010 - 06:23 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

Good work on all the research. Sourdough is one of my favorite breads. Unfortunately, I can't figure out if I'm E3/E3 from my 23andme data. Anyways, I thought all you paleo people only cared about VLDL. Granted, I would not be happy about an increase in LDL either.

[Skötkonung]

Good work on all the research. Sourdough is one of my favorite breads. Unfortunately, I can't figure out if I'm E3/E3 from my 23andme data. Anyways, I thought all you paleo people only cared about VLDL. Granted, I would not be happy about an increase in LDL either.

Since 23andme doesn't test for this gene, you can figure out your APOE status by proxy genes. I had mine independently tested when I learned my mom is a E3/E4. I was worried about my Alzheimer's risk.

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=40117

Edited by Skötkonung, 14 June 2010 - 06:42 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

For rs4420638 I'm AG... does that mean I'm likely ok? GG is the worst, right?

EDIT: Just saw... 3 fold increase in risk for Alzheimer's. At least not 15 fold increase. Still worth taking precautions early, if there are any precautions. Don't know what this means in relation to my ability to metabolize grains.

Edited by progressive, 14 June 2010 - 08:13 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

Wow... so there is this whole freaky Haemochromatosis-Alzheimer's-iron-IP6 connection. Phytic Acid is IP6. IP6 chelates iron. I thought this was good for people with Hemochromatosis, right? So people with E4/E4, they should stay away from phytic acid? Or what?

I am a carrier of Hemochromatosis. I have a feeling my dad is E4/E4 and my mom is E3/E3, making me E3/E4.

EDIT: Removed some stupid conjecture.

Edited by progressive, 14 June 2010 - 09:22 PM.

[Lufega]

There is a recipe that calls for germinating rice before cooking and eating. I believe there is even a special rice cooker designed just for this purpose. I don't know if in the process of germinated the brown rice, it also ferments?

http://www.scienceda...80922155950.htm

http://www.medicalne...cles/122528.php

A team of researchers has identified the active compounds that contribute to the health benefits of pre-germinated brown rice; the healthy components are a related set of sterol-like molecules known as acylated steryl-beta-glucosides (ASGs).

[Skötkonung]

Wow... so there is this whole freaky Haemochromatosis-Alzheimer's-iron-IP6 connection. Phytic Acid is IP6. IP6 chelates iron. This is good for people with Hemochromatosis and Alzheimer's risk, right? Yet for people without that risk, IP6 actually screws things up.

I am a carrier of Hemochromatosis.

What's your mutation variety? I'm homozygous for c282Y and have to get phlebotomy once a month. I'm not too worried about it so long as my iron stays within a normal range. If you're a homozygote for one of the mutations, you should get your iron (ferritin / transferritin) measured.

[Skötkonung]

For rs4420638 I'm AG... does that mean I'm likely ok? GG is the worst, right?

EDIT: Just saw... 3 fold increase in risk for Alzheimer's. At least not 15 fold increase. Still worth taking precautions early, if there are any precautions. Don't know what this means in relation to my ability to metabolize grains.

I think rs4420638 = GG and 7412 = CC makes one likely to be homozygous APOe4.

SNPedia has some good resources for approximating your status as well.
http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/APOE

[EmbraceUnity]

Wow... so there is this whole freaky Haemochromatosis-Alzheimer's-iron-IP6 connection. Phytic Acid is IP6. IP6 chelates iron. This is good for people with Hemochromatosis and Alzheimer's risk, right? Yet for people without that risk, IP6 actually screws things up.

I am a carrier of Hemochromatosis.

What's your mutation variety? I'm homozygous for c282Y and have to get phlebotomy once a month. I'm not too worried about it so long as my iron stays within a normal range. If you're a homozygote for one of the mutations, you should get your iron (ferritin / transferritin) measured.

My mutation variety is in the image below

My rs7412 is CC.

Attached Files

•  HFE.png   3.31KB   36 downloads

[Skötkonung]

Hemochromatosis exists independently of your APOE variant. In that other thread, they found a trend that people with hemochromatosis were most likely to be E3/E3 (over other variants), but APOE and HFE aren't interelated. Some of the other research I have found seems to indicate that uncontrolled hemochromatosis can cause Alzheimer's disease and can amplify symptoms of the APOE E4 genotype.

Also, if you have HFE mutation, phytic acid should be helpful in reducing iron and that should prevent any problems with hemochromatosis. In practice, it doesn't work that well for me. Legumes and grains cause me to go anemic with or without phlebotomy (an opposite problem) so I avoid them as it is easier to control my iron with phlebotomy.

My grandfather (who has Alzheimer's and severe heart disease at age 86) is E3/E4. My mother (his daughter) has E3/E4 and high cholesterol despite a "normal" BMI / lifestyle. My sister and I are E3/E3. Not sure about my dad, but I presume he is E3/??.

Not sure how my mother would react to low-carb. Right now she is only a mostly whole foods diet and fairy sedentary (retired) with the exception of gardening and housekeeping. She doesn't entirely avoid sweets, but I can't see that being the cause of her terrible lipid profile.

[Skötkonung]

Wow... so there is this whole freaky Haemochromatosis-Alzheimer's-iron-IP6 connection. Phytic Acid is IP6. IP6 chelates iron. This is good for people with Hemochromatosis and Alzheimer's risk, right? Yet for people without that risk, IP6 actually screws things up.

I am a carrier of Hemochromatosis.

What's your mutation variety? I'm homozygous for c282Y and have to get phlebotomy once a month. I'm not too worried about it so long as my iron stays within a normal range. If you're a homozygote for one of the mutations, you should get your iron (ferritin / transferritin) measured.

My mutation variety is in the image below

My rs7412 is CC.

Oh you're probably fine for hemochromatosis. There is still a slight chance for it, but I wouldn't worry excessively about it. This is my result for HFE.

Attached Files

•  Picture_6.png   15.8KB   21 downloads

Edited by Skötkonung, 14 June 2010 - 09:28 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

My mom had iron overload as a child, but has been fine since. She thought it was simply because at the time she was eating more spinach than Popeye the Sailor Man. However, I think my 23andMe test might have saved her life. She is getting checked out for Hemochromatosis, and I am certain she has it. I hope she doesn't have too much organ damage.

Edited by progressive, 14 June 2010 - 10:13 PM.

[MoodyBlue]

In case you aren't aware of a brand of Orgranic Sprouted Grain Breads which reduces phytic acid in addition to other advantages, here it is: http://www.foodforli...difference.html

[tomnook]

In case you aren't aware of a brand of Orgranic Sprouted Grain Breads which reduces phytic acid in addition to other advantages, here it is: http://www.foodforli...difference.html

Also worth checking out the formulation and production of "Manna from Heaven" wheat free sprouted grain bread from Julian Bakery recommended as part of the Rosedale diet. I'm a european with E3/E3 (from my 23andme data) and have eaten a slice of this bread daily for several months with nothing but improvement in both LDL reduction and HDL elevation.

[Skötkonung]

For those who missed it, the speculation on why E3 genotype is badly affected by wheat is as follows:

The finding of increased LDL-cholesterol following consumption of whole grain wheat sourdough bread in the NGI participants with the APOE E3/E3 genotype was unexpected and may be explained by a shift in utilization of glucose as a substrate for hepatic acetyl-CoA production. Although it is possible that the glucose sensing transcription factor carbohydrate response element binding protein may have influenced LDL-cholesterol in the APOE E3/E3 sample within the NGI group, this hypothesis was not tested in the current study.

The authors really don't do a good job explaining their findings. Acetyl-CoA is essential to the balance between carbohydrate metabolism and fat metabolism. In normal circumstances, acetyl-CoA from fatty acid metabolism feeds into the citric acid cycle, contributing to the cell's energy supply. In the liver, when levels of circulating fatty acids are high, the production of acetyl-CoA from fat breakdown exceeds the cellular energy requirements. To make use of the energy available from the excess acetyl-CoA, ketone bodies are produced which can then circulate in the blood. Therefore, when at rest, both the skeletal and cardiac muscles satisfy their energy requirement mainly through oxidation of ketone bodies. In some circumstances, this can lead to the presence of very high levels of ketone bodies in the blood, causing ketosis.

The second part of the author's explanation links to the following study:
Study: ChREBP: a glucose-activated transcription factor involved in the development of metabolic syndrome.

Acetyl-CoA and ChREBP share much the of the same metabolic processes, although I don't know enough about either to make assumptions on how wheat bran could be affecting them.

ChREBP: Master Lipid Regulator in the Liver

Something about wheat bran in people with the E3 genotype may cause metabolic syndrome and disrupt your lipid profile. As mentioned by the authors in the study, oat bran doesn't seem to have this effect.

Most related to the current study, oat bran intervention studies of 2- [51] and 4- [50] week durations have found significantly greater reductions in total- and LDL-cholesterol in those with the APOE E3/E3 genotype [50] and in those who are APOE E2 allele carriers [51], in comparison with wheat bran.

So if you know you have the E3 genotype, maybe switching to a oat source versus wheat is best. Back to the original topic, oats cannot be sprouted because they have been heat treated (the phytic acid-degrading enzyme phytase is disabled). Cooking without soaking first also does not have much effect on phytic acid.

One might be able to find oats that have not been heat treated, or one can find possibly find a recipe for fermented oats.

[ajnast4r]

I am going to be exploring sourdough fermentation soon... i have celiac disease, so most [gluten free] bread tastes like crap. i have a great tasting flour made from uncooked garbanzo beans, but i rarely ever use it for fear that it is surely WAY high in phytic acid.

[openeyes]

My mom had iron overload as a child, but has been fine since.

Menstruation helps keep women's iron levels down, but once they hit menopause they have to find other methods. As a man (not with any sort of iron disorder that I know of) I give blood to do essentially the same thing. There are also foods that help reduce iron absorption, such as green tea taken with meals, and others that increase it like vitamin C.

For a low maintenance bread recipe check out http://www.motherear...utes-A-Day.aspx

[MoodyBlue]

I am going to be exploring sourdough fermentation soon... i have celiac disease, so most [gluten free] bread tastes like crap. i have a great tasting flour made from uncooked garbanzo beans, but i rarely ever use it for fear that it is surely WAY high in phytic acid.

Food for Life has created gluten free breads which have the same moisture content as conventional breads, as well as gluten free tortillas. See here: http://www.foodforli...ree-breads.html.

Their gluten free products are here: http://www.foodforli...g...D=1&do=list, and here: http://www.foodforli...g...D=2&do=list. Some of those formulas look pretty tasty.

[hypnotoad]

My mom had iron overload as a child, but has been fine since.

Menstruation helps keep women's iron levels down, but once they hit menopause they have to find other methods. As a man (not with any sort of iron disorder that I know of) I give blood to do essentially the same thing. There are also foods that help reduce iron absorption, such as green tea taken with meals, and others that increase it like vitamin C.

For a low maintenance bread recipe check out http://www.motherear...utes-A-Day.aspx

Apparently giving blood is the simplest, easiest way to reduce serum iron levels. Just heard a podcast (superhuman radio) where a doc was saying that donating blood twice a year helps lower risk of cancer and heart disease - they are not sure entirely why. Could be reduction of toxic metals, clearing waste from the spleen, something about forcing the body to regenerate new blood cells etc.

Anyway, giving blood looks to be something that benefits both the donor and the receiver. I just gave blood last week and plan to do every 6 months or so.

Edited by hypnotoad, 15 June 2010 - 09:29 PM.

[ajnast4r]

I am going to be exploring sourdough fermentation soon... i have celiac disease, so most [gluten free] bread tastes like crap. i have a great tasting flour made from uncooked garbanzo beans, but i rarely ever use it for fear that it is surely WAY high in phytic acid.

Food for Life has created gluten free breads which have the same moisture content as conventional breads, as well as gluten free tortillas. See here: http://www.foodforli...ree-breads.html.

Their gluten free products are here: http://www.foodforli...g...D=1&do=list, and here: http://www.foodforli...g...D=2&do=list. Some of those formulas look pretty tasty.

their bread tastes like cardboard to me... the only bread i enjoy as of late is the bobs redmill mix. but its too refined/starchy for me to consume on a regular basis...

im going to aim to make a sourdough bread with garbanzo & brown rice flour. if i can make something good enough to consume regularly i would probably sprout & mill the beans/grain myself.