11 replies to this topic

[DavidP]

Hi!

I came across some information about regaining mental and physical energy in middle age that suggested the following routine to perk up overall energy AND tackle brain fog. The problem is I have since found articles suggesting Glutamic Acid (L-Glutamate) causes neurotoxicity resulting in memory lose, hypothalamus damage, brain lesions, cell death, etc. There are also articles suggesting Glutamic Acid is great and improves mental function. Does anyone have any insight into this?

I took the morning round this AM and definitely feel perked up, but I'm worried about the Glutamic Acid (L-Glutamate) in the mix. Also, I don't know if I should be taking the L-Carnitine or the Acetyl L-Carnitine? There is so much information on the internet, I don't know what to believe.

Morning:
Take with food and a full glass of water.

L-Carnitine or Acetyl L-Carnitine, 1000mg
CoQ10, 60mg
Calcium, 500mg
Magnesium, 400mg
L-Glutamate, 800mg

Lunch:
Take with food and a full glass of water.

L-Carnitine or Acetyl L-Carnitine, 1000mg
CoQ10, 60mg
L-Glutamate, 400mg

Dinner:
Take with food and a full glass of water.

L-Carnitine or Acetyl L-Carnitine, 500mg
CoQ10, 30mg
L-Glutamate, 400mg

[Spectre]

Well, glutamine is just an amino acid..so I don't think it can directly induce neurotoxicity, that would imply that consuming whey protein (which is also in milk), would induce brain damage every time you take it..which doesn't make any sense. Could you post the studies that claim glutamic acid causes brain damage?

And for the carnitine, I would stick with ALCAR above standard l-carnitine.

Edited by Spectre, 11 September 2010 - 08:01 PM.

[KimberCT]

No worries, dietary l-glutamine does not cause a rise in plasma glutamate...

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2122714
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19587091


...and even with a spike in plasma glutamate, only a small amount is transported across the BBB.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10736373

[DavidP]

Here are some of the articles I found that gave me a scare. This is for Glutamic Acid or L-glutam(ATE), not L-glutam(INE). If I'm reading this correctly, then L-Glutamic Acid is also known as MSG, monosodium glutamate, which has a bunch of "supposed" health risks. But I'm not sure... The bottle of tablets I bought is labeled L-Glutamic Acid. It doesn't say monosodium glutamate. All the articles below mention the neurotoxicity aeb over excitation of neurons outside the BBB that can cause cell death, which is pretty scary, but at what dosage?

Should I just leave it out for fear of fizzling out my neurons? But the book I read said that combining L-Glutamate + Calcium + Magnesium + ALCAR has a huge affect on alieviating fatigue and brain fog, but I think it was written in 1999. I really want to eliminate my chronic fatigue.

http://www.truthinla...G.html</strong>

http://medind.nic.in...48.pdf</strong> PAGE 152

Monosodium Glutamate (MSG)

Almost everyone knows they should avoid MSG, so food manufacturers have gotten smart about hiding it. But it astounds me how many times I see it listed openly as monosodium glutamate in the ingredient list of a common kitchen staple. It's in so many foods because it's a flavor enhancer that leads you to want to eat more, and which is exactly what food manufacturers want.

MSG is a neurotoxin that excites the brain. In addition to being toxic, it's addictive. It can cause brain damage, lead to behavior disorders, learning disabilities, endocrine and reproductive disorders and neurodegenerative disease. It has been shown to lead to obesity regardless of caloric intake; it acts on the pancreas to secrete insulin and stimulate hunger, and if you are taking calcium blockers for high blood pressure, MSG acts as a calcium channel opener, counteracting that medication.

It's in soups, salad dressings and dips, Hamburger Helper, frozen foods, prepared noodles and potato chips, it's the secret ingredient at many big name fast food and chain restaurants, and it's sold as the flavor-enhancing product, Accent. It's not just a Chinese restaurant concern, though it gained attention after many people sensitive to its effects came down with headaches, dizziness and chest pains after eating it in Chinese food.

Glutamic acids are amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) commonly found in foods such as tomatoes, milk and mushrooms. They are also found in our cells and function as a neurotransmitter involved in a variety of brain functions. When we eat these foods, we break down the natural or sometimes called "bound" glutamic acid and it is delivered to receptors in our brain and body. It's not harmful and in fact performs a valuable function.

But when glutamic acid is made in a factory, the "bound" glutamic acid in corn, molasses, beets or wheat is broken down by one of several processes: It is hydrolyzed, autolyzed, modified or fermented using powerful chemicals or specially engineered bacterias. (Most of the world's production is made using bacterial fermentation, often with genetically engineered bacterias, but autolyzed and hydrolyzed processes are rampant in food products as well.)

It then becomes refined into a sugar-like white crystal form that is 78.2% glutamate, 12.2% sodium and 9.6% water. Anything 78%-79% processed free glutamic acid (MSG) will be listed as monosodium glutamate on the label. Other MSG-containing ingredients are listed in their technical form such as hydrolyzed vegetable proteins, autolyzed yeast, hydrolyzed yeast, yeast extract, soy extracts and protein isolate. Labels reveal that these forms are pervasive in the vast majority of foods we buy and eat.

So what's the difference between the naturally occurring monosodium glutamate and the processed form?

Unprocessed glutamic acid is L-glutamic acid. When the processed version is created in factories, it is both L-glutamic acid and D-glutamic acid, along with pyroglutamic acid and a number of impurities. Several of the impurities such as mono and dichloro propanols and heterocyclic amines are carcinogenic. But even more importantly, our bodies are made to process and utilize naturally occurring L-glutamic acid, not the created D-glutamic acid that results from factory processing.

The FDA considers MSG to be naturally occurring since the basic ingredient is found in nature. But naturally occurring doesn't mean safe. Arsenic is naturally occurring but you wouldn't want to eat it. The factory version of MSG causes sensitivities and toxicity in people, as our bodies have never had to process this form before. Look out for all forms of monosodium glutamate including autolyzed or hydrolyzed yeast, yeast or soy extract and protein isolate on your ingredient lists and avoid them all.

[NR2(x)]

L-glutmate is a neurotoxin when levels are articfically rasied in the brain, and quite a serious one at that. I couldnt find any studies quantifying in vivo effect. Its often the neurotoxin of choice for in vitro studies. As it would need to raise levels in brain to cause a nootropic effect, it would likewise cause neurotoxicity. Little amounts causing only a little but large amounts causing significant damage from one dose. I definitly notice a bad effect from msg.

Glutamine is a different story(think rate limit enzymes), with some really positives, but some potential for neurotoxicity. But its still better to use real protiens that enter the body as stranded protien, rather than excitory amino acids

Edited by NR2(x), 11 September 2010 - 11:13 PM.

[DavidP]

L-glutmate is a neurotoxin when levels are articfically rasied in the brain, and quite a serious one at that. I couldnt find any studies quantifying in vivo effect. Its often the neurotoxin of choice for in vitro studies. As it would need to raise levels in brain to cause a nootropic effect, it would likewise cause neurotoxicity. Little amounts causing only a little but large amounts causing significant damage from one dose. I definitly notice a bad effect from msg.

Glutamine is a different story(think rate limit enzymes), with some really positives, but some potential for neurotoxicity. But its still better to use real protiens that enter the body as stranded protien, rather than excitory amino acids

Based on what you said, I gather that taking the book recommended dosage 1.6g of Glutamic Acid per day is a really bad idea. I can't believe this stuff is even available in the health stores if it's such a serious neurotoxin. I will definitely be staying away from this stuff, although, when I took 400mg of Glutamic Acid this morning, I had quite a nice "brightness" to my thoughts -- I wonder how many neurons that killed...

If I replace the Glutamic Acid with L-Glutamine, will I experience similar results in the original posted supplement schedule? Same dosage level of L-Glutamine?

Thanks!

EDIT: Found a study that says L-Glutamic Acid (MSG) is safe... http://jn.nutrition....ull/130/4/1058S

Edited by DavidP, 12 September 2010 - 01:21 AM.

[Spectre]

L-glutmate is a neurotoxin when levels are articfically rasied in the brain, and quite a serious one at that. I couldnt find any studies quantifying in vivo effect. Its often the neurotoxin of choice for in vitro studies. As it would need to raise levels in brain to cause a nootropic effect, it would likewise cause neurotoxicity. Little amounts causing only a little but large amounts causing significant damage from one dose. I definitly notice a bad effect from msg.

Glutamine is a different story(think rate limit enzymes), with some really positives, but some potential for neurotoxicity. But its still better to use real protiens that enter the body as stranded protien, rather than excitory amino acids

Based on what you said, I gather that taking the book recommended dosage 1.6g of Glutamic Acid per day is a really bad idea. I can't believe this stuff is even available in the health stores if it's such a serious neurotoxin. I will definitely be staying away from this stuff, although, when I took 400mg of Glutamic Acid this morning, I had quite a nice "brightness" to my thoughts -- I wonder how many neurons that killed...

If I replace the Glutamic Acid with L-Glutamine, will I experience similar results in the original posted supplement schedule? Same dosage level of L-Glutamine?

Thanks!

If it's giving you positive experiences mentally (and I mean healthy), then I seriously doubt it's doing damage to your brain. Glutamic Acid is just a non-essential amino acid, it's not the same thing as MSG (mono-sodium glutamate), which is just a sodium salt of glutamic acid.

This is what you're currently taking:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Glutamic_acid

And this is MSG:

http://en.wikipedia....odium_glutamate

It's purely a misconception. The kind of glutamic acid that is bad is the "free" glutamic acid (used for flavor "enhancement"). Of course overdosing on glutamic acid could in no way be a good thing, while overdosing on L-Glutamine seems like a very hard thing to do. I would switch over to L-Glutamine anyway, you can get a lot of it since it's so cheap and is proven to have many positive effects on the brain and body.

Edited by Spectre, 12 September 2010 - 01:34 AM.

[DavidP]

Spectre,

Thanks for clearing that up. And I think I will switch to the safer L-Glutamine and just stop worrying about it.

Thanks!

[Spectre]

Spectre,

Thanks for clearing that up. And I think I will switch to the safer L-Glutamine and just stop worrying about it.

Thanks!

No problem man

I come here to try and help others as best as I can since I've gotten so much awesome advice from other people on this board. Good luck with everything!

[NR2(x)]

You realise that glutamic acid is one redox step away from free glutamate as in MSG. Redox is not carried out by specific enzymes, its general. In the body Glutamic acid will be in equilibrium with free glutamate.

I know that glutamic acid can give you a feeling of wellbeing but at what cost?
There are literally thousands of studies that show glutamate and its acid to be neurotoxins.
dosing causes concentration spikes which overpower the bodies natural defences, and toxicity will result.
There are many drugs where its hard to define the risk/reward interms of what is acceptable, but this definitly is not one. Go smoke some ciggarettes LOL

[DavidP]

You realise that glutamic acid is one redox step away from free glutamate as in MSG. Redox is not carried out by specific enzymes, its general. In the body Glutamic acid will be in equilibrium with free glutamate.

I know that glutamic acid can give you a feeling of wellbeing but at what cost?
There are literally thousands of studies that show glutamate and its acid to be neurotoxins.
dosing causes concentration spikes which overpower the bodies natural defences, and toxicity will result.
There are many drugs where its hard to define the risk/reward interms of what is acceptable, but this definitly is not one. Go smoke some ciggarettes LOL

Yes, Glutamic Acid or L-Glutamic Acid or Glutamate (whatever it's named) does seem very bad for supplementation.

Here is another study I found. Long read, but very good information about the neurotoxicity and excitotoxicity of Glutamate, with pictures.

http://www.ajnr.org/...rint/22/10/1813

[babcock]

Glutamate is a precursor to GABA which would explain why it gives you feelings of well being. GABA fails at successfully crossing the BBB via supplementation so people have often hypothesized that supplementing L-Glutamine would increase GABA synthesis in the brain which is probably true.

However, for the above stated reasons L-Glutamine supplementation is probably best avoided. Although the whole MSG thing is a bit ridiculous. Although it can be toxic, it would only be toxic when consumed in large quantities (see wikipedia) (i.e. eating a whole cup of raw MSG).