I need some help.

I know this is long, but please read, it's so important to me.

I am sure many of you have seen me post my chasteberry threads a number of times:

Part 1) http://www.imminst.o...l=test booster=
Part 2) http://www.imminst.o...hl=chaste berry

I am at a weird point in my life right now. I don't really want to do anything, I fight myself to get to sleep (incurable insomnia), I fight myself to get up, feeling tired and shitty in the morning. I feel like shit most of the day, and the only true motivation I have is obligation. But I have this memory of being happy, of what happened in the first thread, before the disaster. It was the only time I had ever been truly happy except for when I was real little, before my health problems struck. During those two weeks of everything working, it was the only time in the last 14 years of my life that:

My neuropathy/touch sensitivity/whatever the hell it is, went away
My sleep problems were gone. I was asleep in 5-10 minutes from hitting the pillow and woke up feeling refreshed
My hand tremor stopped
Things drained me less. I remember that I threw up once during this time, and instead of knocking me out during the day, it barely even bothered me.
I didn't have to force myself through life. I did all my homework and all my obligations with time to spare.
My concentration was better, though the ADD was still evident. But since I wasn't drained all the time, I could study for 40 minutes at a time, wall away, come back, until it was done.
My memory was actually decent.
I didn't feeling like I was living in some cloud/bad dream.
People saw me as relaxed and cool. Someone I had just met said I radiated cool. This floored me as I am usually quite socially awkward.
The bags under my eyes were gone
The tension all over my body was gone.
It was truly enjoyable to do things like playing guitar.

The only thing it didn't fix was my social anxiety, which I suppose is a separate issue.

So here I am, not sure what to do with myself right now. And although I've made a lot of strides in medication/supps, self-awareness, concentration, meditation, nothing's really ever come close to this. I feel like figuring this out is my only true shot at at happiness, and I can't do it alone. I don't have the smarts nor concentration to do this myself, nor have I found one single person who has had this reaction to chasteberry, so I am completely in the dark here. These are the basics.

The first time around I took Supremacy by Neogenix. After taking the first pill, I went to class. I was feeling really edgy and uncomfortable, regretting that I took this. Then I said to myself, I am going to try to enjoy this, I am going to let this relax me. And then all of a sudden it happened. The fear was gone. Weird I thought. For the rest of the day I was extremely angry. When I went to bed, I had the sensation the whole night that I wasn't really asleep. But strangely, when I would scratch my face, it would feel very numb. The next morning, this was very comfortably numb. The touch sensitivity was all but gone. I was still furious though, and wanted to punch things. That night however, I went to the piano room to practice, as I had started teaching myself. This time, I was only playing chords on scales that I was learning in the music class I was taking at the time. But as I started playing, a rush of relaxation came over me. All the tension and anger was gone, and there was only joy. From that moment, over the next two weeks, my life was amazing. Not just normal, but amazing, and I could will all my irrational fears and paranoia away like I did in class. Every now and then I see people who's lives are like this normally, and I get filled with a mix of jealousy, frustration, and appreciation. There aren't a lot of people like this, but I assure you they exist.

I wasn't sure what in the supplement was causing this miracle, or if it was a combination of the ingredients, but I did not think it would ware off, that I had truly found what I was looking for. Little did I know, not only would it ware off, but it would put me through one of the most horrible and painful experiences in my entire life, like it was a punishment for ever daring to be happy. For everything good that happened to me, there was some horrible experience to equal it out. My anxiety went through the roof. Every moment was painful, and I checked myself into a hospital for fear that I was going to hurt myself. They put me on 3mg of Ativan, but that did little to relieve the pain. It wasn't until I was put on Paxil 4 weeks later that the reaction stopped, the moment I just took 1 12.5mg pill, and then there was 2 months of recovery. The strangest thing about all this, is that the dose never changed. It was the same dose the whole time.

I tried it 2 months later, but it didn't work. It just made me very foggy. I figured the Paxil was what was preventing it, and I stopped taking it.

A year after the first incident, I went Scripps alternative health clinic to see if anyone had some answers. The doc suggested that it might be the chasteberry, seeing as how it works on the dopamine system (D2 agonist). I started taking it, the normal dose on the bottle (3-4 pills/day). It definitely relaxed me, but wasn't quite as effective. However, it might have been a lower dose than what was in the Supremacy, seeing that it was a whole-plant extract. The other possibility is that I was on Seroquel at the time, a D2 antagonist (this is assuming, though, that this is the actual mechanism). Strangely, again it made me sleep like I wasn't even sleeping. I was aware of the sleep the whole time. Another side-effect, that wasn't there before, is that it made my blood flow really poorly. I constantly woke up with my hands asleep. A few days into it, one night, I noticed that I was getting anxious if I didn't take it. I figured that was a sign to stop. A few days later, I had a panic attack, but I thought I had got gluten'd at the restaurant I just ate at. It wasn't until the next day when I told myself "gee, I haven't felt this bad since the whole supplement things" that I truly understood what I had happened. I was a mess for the next six weeks. I went on Buspar, but that didn't help (other than being the only thing to have keep my weight on, which was nice). It did however make my blood flow poorly. I went on methylfolate after that, after discovering that I had high homocysteine. This made my blood flow even worse, and when I would sit down to meditate, my legs would fall completely asleep, and no variety of sitting position could stop this. Once again, after 6 weeks like this, the only thing that stopped the pain was an SRI (I wasn't on one when I took the chasteberry), which in this case was Imipramine.

Let's look over some mechanisms now. The two main possibilities seem to be D2 agonism and mu-opioid agonsim. The latter seemed the most reasonable explanation, seeing as how my reaction would fit the description of opioid withdraw. But the kink in that theory was the fact that the dose the first time around never changed. I have never heard of actual opioid withdraw at a constant dose. The lead me to LDN. Indeed later on, I tried to go from 25mg of imipramine to 12.5, and that caused severe panic attacks, even after going back up. However, when I went up to 3mg of LDN, it counteracted this. here is my current status with LDN:

http://www.imminst.o...mystery theater

Another interesting fact is that I was recently on amitriptyline, a tricylic like imipramine, and when I went up to 3mg of LDN again, the combo made me feel miserable and made me break out horribly on my face. When I went off the ami, the breakouts and anxiety stopped. The LDN seems to be helping a lot.

So what could cause this? My only theory is that if I have really low endrophin levels, that the mu opioid receptors would be upregulated, and much more receptive to the chasteberry. But it still doesn't explain the withdraw at a constant dose. It also doesn't explain why the SRIs fixed things.

Which leads me to the second possibility, the D2 receptor. I don't know if it would be this, but the fact that I was taking Seroquel the second time around and the reduced effect points to it. On top of it all, if it was this, this would have extreme implications far beyond my problems. The SRI was what stopped the whole mess each time, and if we could find a link between the D2 receptor, I am sure you all know that that would have implications for all sorts of mental disorders.

So I am at a strange crossroads in my life, and I've never needed more help. I have to know what happened in me, and I feel the rest of my life is at stake. The first thing that would help is if someone with some connections could contact Neogenix to find out what is extracted from chasteberry in Supremacy (cerca Feb 2008). I have contacted them by email but they don't respond. I will call them today, but I don't know how to approach this. Suggestions? If they simply won't tell me, I have part of a bottle from 2008. Is there a lab I can send this to that can identify which parts are from the chasteberry?

I am currently studying abroad and when I get back in August, I will have been on 4.5mg of LDN for 3 months, so it will have settled in my system. This itself should make a lot of changes. I will also have chasteberry, Cabergoline, and Memantine at my disposal, all D2 agonists. When I get back, I am thinking of taking 1/4 of a chasteberry pill to see what happens, to if the LDN makes a difference. I don't know if it's worth the risk, but I don't know what else to do. I do have Celexa on hand though, if worse comes to worse. Then there is Cabergoline, which reduces Prolactin like Chasteberry does (D2), but without the mu agonism. Memantine is also a D2 agonist, and is my prime candidate for a Lamictal replacement, which leaves me emotionally drained.

There are also other possible issues with mineral/nutrient deficiencies:
http://www.imminst.o...ems-t39140.html

So I have these puzzle pieces in front of me, and I am struggling to put them together, I need help. So if anyone is willing to put some time aside to do research on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

I am at a weird point in my life right now. I don't really want to do anything, I fight myself to get to sleep (incurable insomnia), I fight myself to get up, feeling tired and shitty in the morning. I feel like shit most of the day, and the only true motivation I have is obligation. But I have this memory of being happy, of what happened in the first thread, before the disaster. It was the only time I had ever been truly happy except for when I was real little, before my health problems struck. During those two weeks of everything working, it was the only time in the last 14 years of my life that:

My neuropathy/touch sensitivity/whatever the hell it is, went away
My sleep problems were gone. I was asleep in 5-10 minutes from hitting the pillow and woke up feeling refreshed
My hand tremor stopped
Things drained me less. I remember that I threw up once during this time, and instead of knocking me out during the day, it barely even bothered me.
I didn't have to force myself through life. I did all my homework and all my obligations with time to spare.
My concentration was better, though the ADD was still evident. But since I wasn't drained all the time, I could study for 40 minutes at a time, wall away, come back, until it was done.
My memory was actually decent.
I didn't feeling like I was living in some cloud/bad dream.
People saw me as relaxed and cool. Someone I had just met said I radiated cool. This floored me as I am usually quite socially awkward.
The bags under my eyes were gone
The tension all over my body was gone.
It was truly enjoyable to do things like playing guitar.

The only thing it didn't fix was my social anxiety, which I suppose is a separate issue.

That sound like it could be major depression. You have tried a lot of things. Now not the time to try unproven substances. Dump all herbs and all other supplements (which may be harmful or interact negatively with proven antidepressants) except those giving essential nutrients. AOR Multibasics, fish oil, magnesium, vitamin D. Or check that you get the RDAs otherwise. None of this should be stop you from seeking the help of an experienced psychiatrist who knows how to treat resistant depression. Discuss adding lithium/liothyronine to other antidepressants. Or go directly for ECT which safe, quick acting, and has a good success rate despite usually given to patients with resistant depression.

Edited by Blue, 12 March 2010 - 05:32 PM.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

LOL, dude, how long have you been here? Surely you've seen some of posts before?

Check how many criteria you pass:
http://en.wikipedia....ressive_episode

I have a few points to make here, please bear with me:

1) It's very disrespectful to come in here and treat me like a noob he doesn't know what he's doing. It's not like I have 20 posts. Saying things like "Now is not the time to try unproven substances," comes across as an insult. Do you honestly think I don't know the signs and symptoms of MDD? Are you kidding me?

2) I worked very hard to type up this long post in explicit detail, and I am not even sure you read it all. The fact that you felt it sufficient to respond with a post typed in 3 minutes, slapping on a a one-size-fits-all label, assuming I now nothing by telling me to get Vit D and AOR Multibasics, and discounting all my research by saying I should give up all that I am doing and go see a doc makes it worse. Do you have any idea how asinine and insulting that is?

3) I have seen a doc. The last one I saw, after about 16 months, pretty much gave up on me, being unable to treat me with the standard pharmacological fare that you seem enshrine in your post. The combo I take now, Lamictal, LDN, Agomelatine, and the supps I take, is more effective than anything any doctor has ever given me. I currently keep in contact with my physician, who respects my research enough to give me what I want if he has the ability to prescribe. He is the one who gave me the agomelatine script.

4) Although I have been in the past, I am not currently depressed. Just because my body's in pain does not mean I don't have a positive outlook. You (like so many people around here do), think you can look up some definition on the web and give people diagnoses as if it would solve everything. It is probably the most dangerous thing done around here (usually by noobs and people who have been around here for under a year) and belies the true complexity of the problems some people pose around here. Please stop, not just with me but with everybody.

5) I am fighting for something, and I don't know if you ever have, but we all do at some point. Sure, I can have a decent life, but I can also have a fantastic life, and the mechanism behind what happened to me is the key. Just because I am unsatisfied with my current situation, does not mean I am wallowing in depression. That's what many people are doing on here, fighting to make their lives as best as possible. I don't know if you can understand that.

6) This thread is about uncovering the mechanisms in my body that caused what happened to happen, not about over-simplistic explanations. It is about pharmacology, and although is directed to some of the more experienced members around here, is open to everyone. If you do not want to participate in a pharmacological discussion, then please don't post.

7) Please post with some tact from now on. There are a lot of people around here who go around telling people all the answers and what they are really feeling (luv2increase comes to mind). This doesn't serve anyone, and just builds frustration in people who are seeking help. Please don't be one of those people who do this. There are plenty of people who come through here who need far more nuanced help than that.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 12 March 2010 - 06:43 PM.

Check how many criteria you pass:
http://en.wikipedia....ressive_episode

Lol. It must be very disappointing after writing all that to see a post like that. Sorry I can't be much help either since I'm in the same boat, but best of luck and I hope you find some answers.

You have tried several pharmaceutical drugs including taking 3 currently. If one still have serious mood problems, which is not uncommon, then a next step with some evidence could be, in consultation with a psychiatrist, adding lithium or liothyronine. Taking an herb/extract with numerous ingredients any one which may change the metabolism and make ineffective other substances is a step into the unknown. If you took/take a herb/extract previously with some pharmaceutical drug that may be the reason the pharmaceutical drugs did not work/are not working as well as they should. No one is going is likely to be able to correctly diagnose or a treat what seems a handicapping and complex problem on a web forum. For example, you did not mention that you took Agomelatine in your first post or earlier posts. What else are we missing? I will certainly not try to do a remote diagnosis or give a treatment plan.

Edited by Blue, 12 March 2010 - 07:30 PM.

I am at a weird point in my life right now. I don't really want to do anything, I fight myself to get to sleep (incurable insomnia), I fight myself to get up, feeling tired and shitty in the morning. I feel like shit most of the day, and the only true motivation I have is obligation. But I have this memory of being happy, of what happened in the first thread, before the disaster. It was the only time I had ever been truly happy except for when I was real little, before my health problems struck. During those two weeks of everything working, it was the only time in the last 14 years of my life that:

My neuropathy/touch sensitivity/whatever the hell it is, went away
My sleep problems were gone. I was asleep in 5-10 minutes from hitting the pillow and woke up feeling refreshed
My hand tremor stopped
Things drained me less. I remember that I threw up once during this time, and instead of knocking me out during the day, it barely even bothered me.
I didn't have to force myself through life. I did all my homework and all my obligations with time to spare.
My concentration was better, though the ADD was still evident. But since I wasn't drained all the time, I could study for 40 minutes at a time, wall away, come back, until it was done.
My memory was actually decent.
I didn't feeling like I was living in some cloud/bad dream.
People saw me as relaxed and cool. Someone I had just met said I radiated cool. This floored me as I am usually quite socially awkward.
The bags under my eyes were gone
The tension all over my body was gone.
It was truly enjoyable to do things like playing guitar.

The only thing it didn't fix was my social anxiety, which I suppose is a separate issue.

That sound like it could be major depression. You have tried a lot of things. Now not the time to try unproven substances. Dump all herbs and all other supplements (which may be harmful or interact negatively with proven antidepressants) except those giving essential nutrients. AOR Multibasics, fish oil, magnesium, vitamin D. Or check that you get the RDAs otherwise. None of this should be stop you from seeking the help of an experienced psychiatrist who knows how to treat resistant depression. Discuss adding lithium/liothyronine to other antidepressants. Or go directly for ECT which safe, quick acting, and has a good success rate despite usually given to patients with resistant depression.

I would not go so far as saying ECT is safe.

I would not go so far as saying ECT is safe.

Which it is according to almost all reviews and studies. But is sounds nasty (and looks in misrepresentations in movies) which is why a lot of people needing it instead use various forms of likely harmful quackery.

I have to say, I agree with some of what Blue said. I think it is easy, especially when you are young, to be in denial of being depressed. Also, anxiety and depression go hand in hand. If you have major issues with anxiety, which alone will make you feel horrible, you most likely have some underlying depression. Maybe I am insulting you again.

Blue was simply giving his honest opinion. I mean, you were asking for people's opinion's were you not? Also, not everyone has read through all of your previous threads and don't assume they have.

Just because you saw one pdoc that couldn't help you does not mean that there is not another one out there that is smarter and better equipped to assist you in getting better.

I would definitely drop the lamictal and start taking memantine.

Is paxil the only SSRI you've tried? Evidently a high dose of memantine with lexapro or prozac can be synergistic.

One thing it appears you have not tried(sorry if I'm wrong about this) is some good old therapy. While it may not solve all of your problems, it surely can only help and definitely will not hurt. You have to find a very good therapist though.

If you ever find yourself feeling 70 percent better, stay on whatever regimen it is that you are on and do not change it. Then you other things like intense exercise followed by a long meditative stretch, yoga, and pleasurable social interaction to try to fill in the other 30 percent.

I have to say, I agree with some of what Blue said. I think it is easy, especially when you are young, to be in denial of being depressed. Also, anxiety and depression go hand in hand. If you have major issues with anxiety, which alone will make you feel horrible, you most likely have some underlying depression. Maybe I am insulting you again.

Blue was simply giving his honest opinion. I mean, you were asking for people's opinion's were you not? Also, not everyone has read through all of your previous threads and don't assume they have.

Just because you saw one pdoc that couldn't help you does not mean that there is not another one out there that is smarter and better equipped to assist you in getting better.

I would definitely drop the lamictal and start taking memantine.

Is paxil the only SSRI you've tried? Evidently a high dose of memantine with lexapro or prozac can be synergistic.

One thing it appears you have not tried(sorry if I'm wrong about this) is some good old therapy. While it may not solve all of your problems, it surely can only help and definitely will not hurt. You have to find a very good therapist though.

If you ever find yourself feeling 70 percent better, stay on whatever regimen it is that you are on and do not change it. Then you other things like intense exercise followed by a long meditative stretch, yoga, and pleasurable social interaction to try to fill in the other 30 percent.

I have been through more drugs, SSRIs, meditations, yoga, etc... then you can imagine. Let's say I were clinically depressed? Yes? It changes nothing. There is nothing in the standard fare of meds that can help me. If you have suggestions beyond SSRIs (of which I have been on many), tricyclics, etc... go ahead, shoot. But if not, can we please stick to the topic at hand? This is really the only thing that has taken the bodily pain away.

I am going to, again, make the suggestion that you don't start making extreme inferences from other people's post. You are off on a lot of things, and this could hurt other people who are less aware.

Since you're all so damn curious, I'll go over my emotional state right now. I am "depressed," but not in the traditional sense. I have no motivation, don't really want to do anything, don't care about much at all. And you know what? It's fantastic. Up until now, the only thing that's ever got me through life has been obligations and the thoughts of impressing other people. All my mind does all day is live out possible situations of interactions with other people, because I never got along with people. This thinking helped me work some things out, such as my social skills. But ultimately, it's a painful day-to-day life. It contributes to my chronic fatigue by exhausting my mind and contributes to my insomnia by making me feel guilty for not doing enough productive things in the day. I would get motivated to do projects and then once I got approval/knew I wasn't going to get it I stopped. 2 years ago I realized that this is how my mind works, and I've been fighting it ever since, with meditation, exercise, journal-keeping, whatever. And now it's finally cracked. All of a sudden I am not giving a shit about what people think (well, not to nearly the same extent), all of a sudden I feel less awkward and my social anxiety is going away. Sure, I am absolutely unmotivated, don't give a shit about much, and am probably in some sort of sadness right now. But it's the happiest sadness I've ever had. I am finally purging myself of the thinking that have been burdening my life, my mind, and my soul for so long.

So, in the scope of my life, this is a success for me. But even so, one always has to always be moving forward, and figuring out this chasteberry thing is the best thing I can do for myself right now. So, let's stick to that please.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 12 March 2010 - 10:50 PM.

I would not go so far as saying ECT is safe.

Which it is according to almost all reviews and studies. But is sounds nasty (and looks in misrepresentations in movies) which is why a lot of people needing it instead use various forms of likely harmful quackery.

Sorry this is off topic again but I feel the need to address it. Blue, please do your research. Look at reviews on revolution health. Go to forums like psycho-babble. ECT is NOT free of risk of some pretty scary side effects. Excuse me but your statements about ECT are full of ignorance. It should be used as an absolute last resort in major debilitation depression.

Yes it is much safer than it used to be and it has been wrongly portrayed in movies like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". Still, it is not the safe miraculous cure you are making it sound like.

Edited by morganator, 14 March 2010 - 05:24 AM.

I would not go so far as saying ECT is safe.

Which it is according to almost all reviews and studies. But is sounds nasty (and looks in misrepresentations in movies) which is why a lot of people needing it instead use various forms of likely harmful quackery.

Sorry this is off topic again but I feel the need to address it. Blue, please do your research. Look at reviews on revolution health. Go to forums like psycho-babble. ECT is NOT free of risk of some pretty scary side effects. Excuse me but your statements about ECT are full of ignorance. It should be used as an absolute last resort in major debilitation depression.

Yes it is much safer than it used to be and it has been wrongly portrayed in movies like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". Still, it is not the safe miraculous cure you are making it sound like.

Sorry, I will not do your work for you and work to try to find evidence for your point of view. If you have a link to a scientifically based source, then present it. Yes, there are obviously critics, but the overwhelming majority of researchers and literature support ECT. Side effects? Sure, there are some temporary ones. That researchers have not been able to show permanent harmful effects despite decades of intensive effort to do so for this the most publicly despised and feared psychiatric treatment should say you something.

On the contrary, before dspensing advise to not treat depression as early as possible, consider that research indicates that depression shrinks parts of the brain and that this seems to become permanent if prolonged or repeated:
http://userwww.servi...2_JDBremner.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2612082/

OSL, would you mind providing a detailed list of all the herbs and supplements you were taking at and around the time you started Neogenix Supremacy? I read the posts you cited but wasn't able to locate this information. It should assist in providing context for those willing to take a stab at this.

Edited by dilenja, 15 March 2010 - 04:21 AM.

From the previous thread the argument that it could have been the Vitex is quite compelling. Have you completely ruled this out? How about Forkolin, have you looked into this further? This is known to act on Dopamine systems as well.

Edited by dilenja, 15 March 2010 - 04:20 AM.

Luckily I made a Regimen thread at the same time it was all happening:
http://www.imminst.o...o...&hl=regimen

I tried all the ingredients in the Supremacy separately and the only thing that had any significant effect was the chasteberry/vitex, which is what caused the second incident.

I have found something very interesting, I am sure many of you have read this thread:
http://www.imminst.o...ers-t34864.html

My pupils fluctuated more than the example video he posted. Also, I always have to wear sunglasses outside, because no matter how bright or cloudy it is outside, I am ALWAYS squinting. An aldosterone problem would pull some of these puzzle pieces together, and would also give some sort of link to the serotonin connection, seeing as how serotonin is needed to produce aldosterone. I am gonna get a blood test for this ASAP.

Perhaps the progesterone incease/prolactin decrease from the chasteberry (and maybe other ingredients in supremacy) caused a huge increase in the reuptake of serotonin to make more aldosterone. At first, this would fix a possible aldosterone problem and also free up 5HT2c receptors, increasing dopamine and making me feel better overall. But then the lack of serotonin would ultimately cause the sever panic attacks I had until I took an SRI. This is just speculation, but it's the most I've had to go on so far.

The only thing that is so weird is that, out of the probably 100s of thousands of people that have taken chasteberry, and 10s of thousands that have taken Supremacy, why me? Why can't I find anyone else to whom this has happened to? What makes me so unique?

I would not go so far as saying ECT is safe.

Which it is according to almost all reviews and studies. But is sounds nasty (and looks in misrepresentations in movies) which is why a lot of people needing it instead use various forms of likely harmful quackery.

Sorry this is off topic again but I feel the need to address it. Blue, please do your research. Look at reviews on revolution health. Go to forums like psycho-babble. ECT is NOT free of risk of some pretty scary side effects. Excuse me but your statements about ECT are full of ignorance. It should be used as an absolute last resort in major debilitation depression.

Yes it is much safer than it used to be and it has been wrongly portrayed in movies like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". Still, it is not the safe miraculous cure you are making it sound like.

Sorry, I will not do your work for you and work to try to find evidence for your point of view. If you have a link to a scientifically based source, then present it. Yes, there are obviously critics, but the overwhelming majority of researchers and literature support ECT. Side effects? Sure, there are some temporary ones. That researchers have not been able to show permanent harmful effects despite decades of intensive effort to do so for this the most publicly despised and feared psychiatric treatment should say you something.

On the contrary, before dspensing advise to not treat depression as early as possible, consider that research indicates that depression shrinks parts of the brain and that this seems to become permanent if prolonged or repeated:
http://userwww.servi...2_JDBremner.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2612082/

Yes off topic again, sorry OSL.

I KNOW chronic depression and anxiety cause brain damage. And, I take antidepressants and I am all for preventing depression from rearing it's ugly dragon head and blowing fire on neurons and burning them.

When did I say do my work for me? What you can't take a look on revolution health or psycho-babble. Man, why are you on the defensive? Take it easy bra.

Here ya go fella:

http://www.google.co...TpFCdmb0E1M6zRg

Yes, some good, and some, not so good.

And here ya go:

http://www.google.co...MMGobTvlrbg-Lmg

Specifically read this:

http://www.dr-bob.or...sgs/935893.html

He may not be an expert but he brings up some good points

Opinions and anecdotes on webforums? That is not scientific evidence. That is like saying UFOs exist because a lot of people believe so. Or that homeopathy works overwhelmingly well because those who post on iherb's review sections for homeopathic products are overwhelmingly positive.

Just to clarify, researchers doing proper studies do not go through old journals and write a subjective evaluation of patient improvement.. They test doing objective psychometric tests both before and after treatment. They do not classify drop-outs as improved.

No, a single application of ECT does not cure depression permanently for life. Neither do antidpressants or psychotherapy. However, ECT often (no one has claimed always) breaks a damaging and nonresponsive depression when everything else has failed. Just because ECT is so stigmatized it is often tried far too late (or not at all) when a depression may have caused permanent brain or social damage.

Edited by Blue, 16 March 2010 - 04:55 PM.

Together with the insomnia, my 90% bet lies on: moderate to severe clinical depression. You are just probably taking much better than average, due to being life extensionist and all, but it still is one. What you describe as "depressed" not in the traditional sense sounds very much like a set of symptoms compatible with standard severe depression. It does not need to involve sadness, for instance. If your doctors tell you otherwise, frankly they're incompetent.

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin. Then you may have an objective criteria for endogeneous depression, which has to be treated. I would then try to go for tianeptine and 5HTP for serotonin replenishment and low-dose deprenyl for catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine), before you try the standard side-effect loaded stuff. If that does not work, worst case try tricyclics (TCA) as they may work if SSRIs do not. (Btw, Amitriptyline is the oldest TCA and the only TCA not under suspicion of causing DNA damage.)

I would keep checking DHEA, thyroid and the other hormonal usual suspects as well, because if you are in a depression and just keep going anyhow, you may have severe stress symptoms (including hormone and vitamin deficiency), but I doubt they are the root cause. So definitely also keep taking omega3s, vitamin D with blood tests to get to 60ng/ml, high dose B vitamins every day, even if you don't feel benefits, to prevent it from getting worse.

PS: Really, having blood tests done for neurotransmitters are most crucial, as well as for the hormones. They'll save time and money. In another thread you state taking 1000 IU Vitamin D, from common experience probably way to low. What are your blood levels?

Edited by Mixter, 16 March 2010 - 05:49 PM.

Together with the insomnia, my 90% bet lies on: moderate to severe clinical depression. You are just probably taking much better than average, due to being life extensionist and all, but it still is one. What you describe as "depressed" not in the traditional sense sounds very much like a set of symptoms compatible with standard severe depression. It does not need to involve sadness, for instance. If your doctors tell you otherwise, frankly they're incompetent.

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin. Then you may have an objective criteria for endogeneous depression, which has to be treated. I would then try to go for tianeptine and 5HTP for serotonin replenishment and low-dose deprenyl for catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine), before you try the standard side-effect loaded stuff. If that does not work, worst case try tricyclics (TCA) as they may work if SSRIs do not. (Btw, Amitriptyline is the oldest TCA and the only TCA not under suspicion of causing DNA damage.)

I would keep checking DHEA, thyroid and the other hormonal usual suspects as well, because if you are in a depression and just keep going anyhow, you may have severe stress symptoms (including hormone and vitamin deficiency), but I doubt they are the root cause. So definitely also keep taking omega3s, vitamin D with blood tests to get to 60ng/ml, high dose B vitamins every day, even if you don't feel benefits, to prevent it from getting worse.

PS: Really, having blood tests done for neurotransmitters are most crucial, as well as for the hormones. They'll save time and money. In another thread you state taking 1000 IU Vitamin D, from common experience probably way to low. What are your blood levels?

It seems that you are the one who is incompetent.

Together with the insomnia, my 90% bet lies on: moderate to severe clinical depression. You are just probably taking much better than average, due to being life extensionist and all, but it still is one. What you describe as "depressed" not in the traditional sense sounds very much like a set of symptoms compatible with standard severe depression. It does not need to involve sadness, for instance. If your doctors tell you otherwise, frankly they're incompetent.

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin. Then you may have an objective criteria for endogeneous depression, which has to be treated. I would then try to go for tianeptine and 5HTP for serotonin replenishment and low-dose deprenyl for catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine), before you try the standard side-effect loaded stuff. If that does not work, worst case try tricyclics (TCA) as they may work if SSRIs do not. (Btw, Amitriptyline is the oldest TCA and the only TCA not under suspicion of causing DNA damage.)

I would keep checking DHEA, thyroid and the other hormonal usual suspects as well, because if you are in a depression and just keep going anyhow, you may have severe stress symptoms (including hormone and vitamin deficiency), but I doubt they are the root cause. So definitely also keep taking omega3s, vitamin D with blood tests to get to 60ng/ml, high dose B vitamins every day, even if you don't feel benefits, to prevent it from getting worse.

PS: Really, having blood tests done for neurotransmitters are most crucial, as well as for the hormones. They'll save time and money. In another thread you state taking 1000 IU Vitamin D, from common experience probably way to low. What are your blood levels?

It seems that you are the one who is incompetent.

What a great way to respond to someone who is making a suggestion on how you may alleviate your problems. Making a mistake on the specifics of a test does not invalidate his entire post.

No, he is coming in cavaliering his way in here with all the answers and suggesting anyone who says otherwise is incompetent. He then proceeds to list a bunch of things I've tried before, in no way asks me what I've tried, and does not contribute one idea to my original post. It's all very masturbatory and doesn't serve me in the least.

I've been on SSRIs, TCAs (including Amitriptyline), mood stabilizers, benzos, seroquel, novel meds(ie wellbutrin & buspar), and many many more. I am currently on Agomelatine which isn't bad and LDN, which helps with anxiety and ADD. There is an underlying problem that is addressed in the OP of this thread and needs to be solved, and no amount of other drugs or treatments are going to solve it. There is something wrong with me chemically, probably hormonal, and I need to find it. I have a very positive outlook, but any remaining depression can only be conquered by removing the bodily pain and fatigue I experience day-to-day caused by this problem; anything else just serves to mask the problem. So please, if you really want to help me and don't just wanna get off by hit-and-run posting and one-size-fits-all diagnoses that only serve to make you feel better, let's stick to the OP. I know I am coming off as a dick in this post but I am frustrated at the direction this thread is taking. I would really, really appreciate help that has to do with my actual problem.

Thank you.

I also forgot to list one interesting fact in my OP. The experience in the first thread listed there was the first time in many many years that my body temperature was 98.6. Usually it's about 97.0. I thought that was very interesting.

Opinions and anecdotes on webforums? That is not scientific evidence. That is like saying UFOs exist because a lot of people believe so. Or that homeopathy works overwhelmingly well because those who post on iherb's review sections for homeopathic products are overwhelmingly positive.

Just to clarify, researchers doing proper studies do not go through old journals and write a subjective evaluation of patient improvement.. They test doing objective psychometric tests both before and after treatment. They do not classify drop-outs as improved.

No, a single application of ECT does not cure depression permanently for life. Neither do antidpressants or psychotherapy. However, ECT often (no one has claimed always) breaks a damaging and nonresponsive depression when everything else has failed. Just because ECT is so stigmatized it is often tried far too late (or not at all) when a depression may have caused permanent brain or social damage.

I could argue that the use of antidepressants combined with psychotherapy can cure depression permanently for life.

I'm starting to think that you have been treated ECT yourself. If you have had success with it I think that is great.

The brain damage caused by chronic depression or anxiety is not always permanent. Many antidepressants and lithium combined with exercise can reverse much or all of this damage.

I think we should listen to people's experiences with ECT. They have no reason whatsoever to lie.

Together with the insomnia, my 90% bet lies on: moderate to severe clinical depression. You are just probably taking much better than average, due to being life extensionist and all, but it still is one. What you describe as "depressed" not in the traditional sense sounds very much like a set of symptoms compatible with standard severe depression. It does not need to involve sadness, for instance. If your doctors tell you otherwise, frankly they're incompetent.

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin. Then you may have an objective criteria for endogeneous depression, which has to be treated. I would then try to go for tianeptine and 5HTP for serotonin replenishment and low-dose deprenyl for catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine), before you try the standard side-effect loaded stuff. If that does not work, worst case try tricyclics (TCA) as they may work if SSRIs do not. (Btw, Amitriptyline is the oldest TCA and the only TCA not under suspicion of causing DNA damage.)

I would keep checking DHEA, thyroid and the other hormonal usual suspects as well, because if you are in a depression and just keep going anyhow, you may have severe stress symptoms (including hormone and vitamin deficiency), but I doubt they are the root cause. So definitely also keep taking omega3s, vitamin D with blood tests to get to 60ng/ml, high dose B vitamins every day, even if you don't feel benefits, to prevent it from getting worse.

PS: Really, having blood tests done for neurotransmitters are most crucial, as well as for the hormones. They'll save time and money. In another thread you state taking 1000 IU Vitamin D, from common experience probably way to low. What are your blood levels?

It seems that you are the one who is incompetent.

Do you not see a trend in how people are interpreting what you are describing?

It appears you become very defensive when anyone mentions that they think one of the causes of your problems may be underlying depression. This makes you look like you are in denial and do not have an open mind. Remember, when people make these suggestions they are only trying to help. That is what you want isn't it? Or do you just want to hear what you want to hear? I don't think this will ever help you, if anything it will hurt you in the long run.

I definately respect your wanting to identify the underlying mechanisms which are contributing to your condition and to not just submit to another round of Scrips with the hope that something catchs and works. It would appear that something has been overlooked, and I'd like to think that with all of the minds that contribute to this forum we can collectively converge upon a few ideas which may assist in your quest to improve your quality of life.

A few questions: For how long now would you consider that you have felt emotionally numb? Have you ever used nicotine and did you find this helpful? Have you used Marijuana and for how long if so? Hard Drugs? Have you been able to rule out environmental factors such as Epstein Barr/Heavy Metals/Lyme with lab tests? I've noticed in another thread you mentioned you had Celiac's and I believe you also mentioned you try to avoid Milk and Casein. Are you still on a strict Casein and wheat free diet? Have you had cortisol, T3, T4 tested? Have you ever tried Armour Thyroid? Do you believe you could have an overgrowth of Candida? Have you ever been checked over by a chiropractor? Have you ever had a Cold Sore? When is the last time you've felt an adrenaline rush while doing something exciting? Have you tried CBT?

If there are any further potential causes that you've been able to rule out with testing over the years, would you be able to provide us with an outline of these as well.

btw here is an article on low body temperature which may be of interest: http://www.squidoo.com/wilsonssyndrome

Together with the insomnia, my 90% bet lies on: moderate to severe clinical depression. You are just probably taking much better than average, due to being life extensionist and all, but it still is one. What you describe as "depressed" not in the traditional sense sounds very much like a set of symptoms compatible with standard severe depression. It does not need to involve sadness, for instance. If your doctors tell you otherwise, frankly they're incompetent.

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin. Then you may have an objective criteria for endogeneous depression, which has to be treated. I would then try to go for tianeptine and 5HTP for serotonin replenishment and low-dose deprenyl for catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine), before you try the standard side-effect loaded stuff. If that does not work, worst case try tricyclics (TCA) as they may work if SSRIs do not. (Btw, Amitriptyline is the oldest TCA and the only TCA not under suspicion of causing DNA damage.)

I would keep checking DHEA, thyroid and the other hormonal usual suspects as well, because if you are in a depression and just keep going anyhow, you may have severe stress symptoms (including hormone and vitamin deficiency), but I doubt they are the root cause. So definitely also keep taking omega3s, vitamin D with blood tests to get to 60ng/ml, high dose B vitamins every day, even if you don't feel benefits, to prevent it from getting worse.

PS: Really, having blood tests done for neurotransmitters are most crucial, as well as for the hormones. They'll save time and money. In another thread you state taking 1000 IU Vitamin D, from common experience probably way to low. What are your blood levels?

It seems that you are the one who is incompetent.

Do you not see a trend in how people are interpreting what you are describing?

It appears you become very defensive when anyone mentions that they think one of the causes of your problems may be underlying depression. This makes you look like you are in denial and do not have an open mind. Remember, when people make these suggestions they are only trying to help. That is what you want isn't it? Or do you just want to hear what you want to hear? I don't think this will ever help you, if anything it will hurt you in the long run.

These people aren't trying to help. Help would be: "I have a feeling you have some underlying depression. Have you been treated for this? What have you taken?"

This is the polite and helpful way to do this. But a couple people have come in with their already complete diagnosis and not even asking me what I've used, suggesting SSRIs and TCAs and other useless things (in my case) . The last one was the worst, saying that any doc who disagrees with him is incompetent, and then being stupid enough to suggest a serotonin blood test as a measurement of his diagnosis. I can't believe that you don't see the problem with this, and I make no apologies for being a dick to these people.

As for the depression, I feel it's there but it's certainly not the underlying condition, otherwise all the AD meds I've taken would have been more helpful. If someone wants to have an actual discussion about this (as opposed to asinine statements), I'd be open to that.

@diljena: I would consider myself to have been numb for about 10-12 years now. I used to smoke and it was quite helpful, but I quit. I still smoke 2-4 times a month when I am particularly tired (non-addictive personality thankfully). I've used weed but not much, it makes me quite anxious if I have any more than a little bit. I had two Epstein Barr tests, the first one negative and the second one positive. The doctor might have been trying to patronize me though cause I was always in there all the time (this was before I knew about Celiac). I keep a very strict gluten/caesin/soy/egg/nut free diet. I've occasionally used E (maybe about 3 times total). It felt good but didn't remove the underlying anxiety like this experience did. Gummed some coke once and didn't like it. Not much else in drugs. I haven't gotten heavy metals or lyme tested because I am very suspicious about their significance, especially the lyme. There hasn't been one double-blind study yet showing antibiotics beating out placebo in supposedly chronic-lyme patients. It's not something I would throw out completely, but lyme seems far-fetched. I would be interested on more info on heavy metals though. I've had my cortisol, T3 and T4 tested and they came out normal. I did a ton of research on Candida and I feel it's bogus alt-med crap (I can post my thread on my reasons if you're curious). I've been checked over by a chiropractor but he seemed like a quack and the things he did didn't seem to help. I've had a cold sore. I feel adrenaline rushes all the time, and I try to suppress them because they wear me out. Regretfully, I haven't done much CBT, but I am actually working on that now.

I'll list some more testing I've been through when I it comes to mind

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 17 March 2010 - 09:09 AM.

The Wilson's Syndrome thing is intriguing, but a little fishy to me. Here's the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson's_syndrome

Opinions and anecdotes on webforums? That is not scientific evidence. That is like saying UFOs exist because a lot of people believe so. Or that homeopathy works overwhelmingly well because those who post on iherb's review sections for homeopathic products are overwhelmingly positive.

Just to clarify, researchers doing proper studies do not go through old journals and write a subjective evaluation of patient improvement.. They test doing objective psychometric tests both before and after treatment. They do not classify drop-outs as improved.

No, a single application of ECT does not cure depression permanently for life. Neither do antidpressants or psychotherapy. However, ECT often (no one has claimed always) breaks a damaging and nonresponsive depression when everything else has failed. Just because ECT is so stigmatized it is often tried far too late (or not at all) when a depression may have caused permanent brain or social damage.

I could argue that the use of antidepressants combined with psychotherapy can cure depression permanently for life.

I'm starting to think that you have been treated ECT yourself. If you have had success with it I think that is great.

The brain damage caused by chronic depression or anxiety is not always permanent. Many antidepressants and lithium combined with exercise can reverse much or all of this damage.

I think we should listen to people's experiences with ECT. They have no reason whatsoever to lie.

A single dose of an antidepressant or a psychotherapy session does not cure depression anymore than one ECT does. But ECT often breaks a depression when everything else, including antidepressants and psychotherapy, have failed. That there later are often new depressive episodes are not surprising considering that usually it is the most severely affected patients who have tried everything else who tries ECT.

If you have any scientific evidence showing better or just equal short-term or long-term treatment efficiency for antidepressants/psychotherapy than ECT, then present it.

No one has said anyone lies. Not everyone who try ECT improves. Some may think that they get adverse effects on cognition. But that is hard to separate from the effects, both immediate and long-term, of depression itself on cognition. Especially for those patients with often longstanding, severe depression who tries ECT. Anecdotes from webforums are not the way to resolve this. Scientific studies are. Which overwhelmingly do not find permanent harmful effects.

Edited by Blue, 17 March 2010 - 10:01 AM.

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So please, if you really want to help me and don't just wanna get off by hit-and-run posting and one-size-fits-all diagnoses that only serve to make you feel better, let's stick to the OP.

What? I mainly asked you to post your specific blood test values for the most relevant hormones and neurotransmitters, so we can make an assessment based on your individual values. Unless you are doing those and just trying medication based on the effects on symptoms, you're IMO doing it wrong.

I know I am coming off as a dick in this post but I am frustrated at the direction this thread is taking.

A bit but also as someone showing overt symptoms of a depression, finding out whether it is endogenous or not is the key to treatment.